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The South cant have large Hispanic populations? Houston? Texas? Florida?
Well, Texas is actually a world of its own. East Texas is the "southern" part, and that even extend to Houston where the eastern part of metro (i.e. Liberty County) or part of Montgomery County feel a lot more southern than, let say, Fort Bend County or even Brazoria County. Further west you go the more "Southwest" it feels, and once you're in San Antonio and west it's definitely Southwest (i.e. more like NM or AZ) than "South".
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
I only interacted with White people in Leonardtown (just realized there is no "S") but it gave me huge Huckleberry Finn vibes.
Hughesvile is north of there but also felt very southern.
That part of Maryland IS very southern. But no surprise b/c that's where all the Tobacco Plantations were. Southern PG, Charles County outside Waldorf/Indian Head etc., Calvert Co, St Mary's County...those places are as southern as it gets for Maryland. TBH that region is not THAT different from Southside VA except Southern MD stayed rural, while Southside VA had some textile mills up until 1960s/1970s.
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Originally Posted by mpier015
Richmond can be both southern and Mid-Atlantic. Using sweet tea, Wawa, Wegmans or whatever else to denote culture is a fruitless argument. Richmond has Wawa, Wegmans, Publix, Kroger, Cookout, shake shack and is getting a royal farms in the metro. They even have a fat burger...it just means there's money to be made.
FWIW, I've never been to a restaurant in Virginia period where they ask you to specifically try sweet tea. If anecdotes mean anything. I'd also be inclined to believe that if there's a market for sweet tea in short pump then there is probably one for it Loudon too, regardless of if it's sold there or not. I do believe I've bought sweet tea all the up to Baltimore before, though it may be less readily available.
Richmond is definitely more mid-Atlantic nowaday due to the DC influence spilling over. I usually have it in the "buffer zone" (i.e. between Rappahannock and James River).
Well, Texas is actually a world of its own. East Texas is the "southern" part, and that even extend to Houston where the eastern part of metro (i.e. Liberty County) or part of Montgomery County feel a lot more southern than, let say, Fort Bend County or even Brazoria County. Further west you go the more "Southwest" it feels, and once you're in San Antonio and west it's definitely Southwest (i.e. more like NM or AZ) than "South".
That part of Maryland IS very southern. But no surprise b/c that's where all the Tobacco Plantations were. Southern PG, Charles County outside Waldorf/Indian Head etc., Calvert Co, St Mary's County...those places are as southern as it gets for Maryland. TBH that region is not THAT different from Southside VA except Southern MD stayed rural, while Southside VA had some textile mills up until 1960s/1970s.
Richmond is definitely more mid-Atlantic nowaday due to the DC influence spilling over. I usually have it in the "buffer zone" (i.e. between Rappahannock and James River).
Houston Texas? come on when is that not considered the south? It is one of the Souths Premier cities and embodies so much of the southern cultural ethos that's never not considered part of the south the way that San Antonio is or maybe even Austin isn't/aren't...that's definitely the south and it's definitely more Hispanic than any North Carolina city. In fact they're the largest population group in Houston... They're 45% of the city. Even Fort Bend and Montgomery County that “feel more southern” are over a quarter Latino. No northeast or Midwest metro is that Hispanic.
We gotta stop this slipper slope somewhere..and it should be **well** before we get to debating if Houston is a southern city. I’m just saying by having Hispanics doesn’t make you not southern.
Richmond can be both southern and Mid-Atlantic. Using sweet tea, Wawa, Wegmans or whatever else to denote culture is a fruitless argument. Richmond has Wawa, Wegmans, Publix, Kroger, Cookout, shake shack and is getting a royal farms in the metro. They even have a fat burger...it just means there's money to be made.
FWIW, I've never been to a restaurant in Virginia period where they ask you to specifically try sweet tea. If anecdotes mean anything. I'd also be inclined to believe that if there's a market for sweet tea in short pump then there is probably one for it in Loudon too, regardless of if it's sold there or not. I do believe I've bought sweet tea all the up to Baltimore before, though it may be less readily available.
Yeah, that's a fair point. Obviously someone asking you if you want sweet tea is pretty trivial but I think in some ways it does speak to the culture - also something like that wouldn't happen in, say, Arlington, VA or Montclair, NJ. Disagree on Loudoun County - it's the richest county in America, the people there are very snobbish, wealthy, rat-race-ish and educated and it's reflected in the culture. Loudoun would have more in common with a suburb in NJ than any other county (outside of NoVa) in VA.
Ultimately, I feel like the North/South conversations on here go in circles because it's all relative and depends on what you consider southern culture but to me, Richmond isn't Georgia or South Carolina but it (especially the suburbs) definitely feels southern.
Again, Charlotte, Durham and Raleigh are stereotyped for being less Southern than Birmingham and Montgomery because, by comparison, the major cities in NC have excessive concentrations of foreign immigrants and non-Southern transplants, which does make those cities less culturally Southern than cities where the original culture is still more in tact (see Birmingham and Montgomery). This phenomenon is not limited to the South, either.
You keep repeating the same thing without explaining how this is unique to North Carolina, much less how this supports the thesis of the OP. Atlanta, and thus Georgia, has this to an even greater magnitude. Doesn't make it Mid-Atlantic or Northern. Also, I didn't realize there could be ”excessive concentrations” of foreign immigrants and non-Southern transplants, as if that's somehow a disqualifier against the South's cultural legacy...
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When you are employed by a major corporation with an international presence, you will find that a plurality of your colleagues in North Carolina are originally from China, India, Nigeria, etc. If those colleagues were born in America, then there is a greater likelihood of them being originally from California, New York or Massachusetts than North Carolina (or another Southern state). From a relocation standpoint, it has been my experience that real Southerners prefer Georgia and Tennessee to North Carolina.
You seem to be extrapolating heavily from your own experiences, and those specifically within the (multinational) corporate world, probably RTP. Zeroing in on this element of things is kind of odd and a given? Obviously the ”real” Southerners are only going to form a slice of this population? Okay, and? This makes places like the Triangle less stereotypically Southern, and that somehow translates to more Mid-Atlantic-ness?
Also, what exactly is a ”real” Southerner to you? Are people with a ”foreign” background ineligible for ”real Southerner” status? What about transplants from Florida or Virginia or elsewhere (who apparently are uniformly non-Southern/from non-Southern parts of their states)?
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Additionally, there are well over one million Hispanic people, primarily from Cuba, Mexico and and the Central American countries, living in North Carolina as of 2023. If you are single and surf the online dating applications while visiting the North Carolina cities, you will find that every third profile belongs to a recent Hispanic immigrant. On social media websites, I am now receiving Spanish-language advertisements from realtors in Charlotte, probably directed at potential transplants from Florida. Hardly what I would call ”Southern.”
How down bad are you to be referencing dating apps in order to make your argument? I guess nowhere can be considered truly Southern anymore, since Latinos and the Spanish language have ”infiltrated” the country at large.
At this point you're just talking in circles, with the sole apparent aim of downplaying NC's Southern culture as much as possible. I don't spend my time talking down about Kentucky's Southern-ness on their forum, but whatever keeps you sane
Houston Texas? come on when is that not considered the south? It is one of the Souths Premier cities and embodies so much of the southern cultural ethos that's never not considered part of the south the way that San Antonio is or maybe even Austin isn't/aren't...that's definitely the south and it's definitely more Hispanic than any North Carolina city. In fact they're the largest population group in Houston... They're 45% of the city. Even Fort Bend and Montgomery County that “feel more southern” are over a quarter Latino. No northeast or Midwest metro is that Hispanic.
We gotta stop this slipper slope somewhere..and it should be **well** before we get to debating if Houston is a southern city. I’m just saying by having Hispanics doesn’t make you not southern.
I think overall the whole "southern" argument is whether a place is "deep south" (East Texas fits in that equation) or "upper south" (i.e. North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, part of VA). Then there's Florida (especially SE FL) and Texas with Hispanic/Latino influence that makes those two places a world of its own.
For Houston...it's "south" but Atlanta or Raleigh it's not, and it's definitely not Birmingham or Memphis.
At this rate the only place that's going to be considered truly Southern anymore under the logic of some here is Mississippi, and really the Delta at that. Even Alabama isn't "safe." Part of some strange desire to shift the goalposts and deny the South of itself.
Also, it's hilarious to hear some of the claims/reasoning about NC here and also that Charleston is apparently "100% Southern," as if S.C. hasn't received significant amounts of in-migration from elsewhere, particularly along the coast and Greenville.
Yeah, that's a fair point. Obviously someone asking you if you want sweet tea is pretty trivial but I think in some ways it does speak to the culture - also something like that wouldn't happen in, say, Arlington, VA or Montclair, NJ. Disagree on Loudoun County - it's the richest county in America, the people there are very snobbish, wealthy, rat-race-ish and educated and it's reflected in the culture. Loudoun would have more in common with a suburb in NJ than any other county (outside of NoVa) in VA.
Ultimately, I feel like the North/South conversations on here go in circles because it's all relative and depends on what you consider southern culture but to me, Richmond isn't Georgia or South Carolina but it (especially the suburbs) definitely feels southern.
Short Pump is pretty well to do. It doesn't have the extreme wealth of some pockets of Loudon but all of Loudon doesn't have extreme wealth. There's honestly not much difference, culturally, between Western Henrico and say Fairfax. The presence of money doesn't make one not like sweet tea, is what I am saying. It's a bad barometer for culture. Again, I think people are conflating wealth, education and transplants with Mid-Atlantic culture which doesn't check out. I also disagree with Loudon being similar to NJ. South Riding would stick out like a sore thumb anywhere north of Maryland. That's like that one time a poster on here said Alexandria had more in common with Portland, Maine than Charleston. It's like these odd statements to distance places from the south that have no real standing in real life now or historically. I have no doubt that some of y'all actually believe that Nova is more similar to Boston than it is to even the rest of Virginia. Which, to me, is crazy. I say this as someone currently living in Boston.
At this rate the only place that's going to be considered truly Southern anymore under the logic of some here is Mississippi, and really the Delta at that. Even Alabama isn't "safe." Part of some strange desire to shift the goalposts and deny the South of itself.
Also, it's hilarious to hear some of the claims/reasoning about NC here and also that Charleston is apparently "100% Southern," as if S.C. hasn't received significant amounts of in-migration from elsewhere, particularly along the coast and Greenville.
"Truly Southern" is a stupid term in general. Unless it's the 1800's why would anyone even use definition? Every part of the USA has been losing its own distinct culture for decades. Globalization and especially with the internet, you've got a whole hodgepodge of individualism where external factors like "location" don't do much anymore. Also - if I can also say, regions of the USA are pretty much distinguished now by scenery and accents. Good luck trying to find "true" culture where everyone's local restaurants are the same 5 generic fast food restaurants.
I don't agree with you in terms of how you're defining things, but I also don't agree with the OP either.
I live in Appalachia. On one side of the state, sure, I'll give it to them. The Tide Water region definitely has a little mid-Atlantic feel to it, but overall it's still undeniably the South. A transitional area somewhat.
But WNC? No way in hell you'd ever define us as "only the South". As I said in a previous post, hop onto I-81. The interior part of states that surround the Appalachian area all relatively feel similar - albeit a different accent. There's areas of Upstate NY that have a relatively "similar feel" to areas around me.
Mid-Atlantic is not the Bos-Wash corridor. It's just not. Mid-Atlantic is Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia. Some say that it includes Pennsylvania and even New Jersey, but I don't see it. And some say that it includes North Carolina, but I don't see that either. North Carolina is a Southern state, certainly "moderated" by Northern influences, and certainly not Deep South, but it's still a Southern state.
If the "Mid-Atlantic" region includes such few states with Virginia being by far the largest, what's the point in having that as a separate region to begin with? I think a lot of it has to do with states not wanting to be associated with the South due to stereotypes. Virginia (NoVA NOT included) should go with the South. If there is a Mid-Atlantic, it's NoVA up through New Jersey and PA can be included in that as well. NY up to Maine can be the greater Northeast.
"Truly Southern" is a stupid term in general. Unless it's the 1800's why would anyone even use definition? Every part of the USA has been losing its own distinct culture for decades. Globalization and especially with the internet, you've got a whole hodgepodge of individualism where external factors like "location" don't do much anymore. Also - if I can also say, regions of the USA are pretty much distinguished now by scenery and accents. Good luck trying to find "true" culture where everyone's local restaurants are the same 5 generic fast food restaurants.
I don't agree with you in terms of how you're defining things, but I also don't agree with the OP either.
I live in Appalachia. On one side of the state, sure, I'll give it to them. The Tide Water region definitely has a little mid-Atlantic feel to it, but overall it's still undeniably the South. A transitional area somewhat.
But WNC? No way in hell you'd ever define us as "only the South". As I said in a previous post, hop onto I-81. The interior part of states that surround the Appalachian area all relatively feel similar - albeit a different accent. There's areas of Upstate NY that have a relatively "similar feel" to areas around me.
Totally agree. I can't believe some of tge ignorant stereotypes people on here still have of the south.
No wonder everywhere they go they say OK this is not the south and this is not the south and this is not what the movies say the south should be.
I am floored that a poster earlier today used how dark someone's skin was as a measure of the south.
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I guess nowhere can be considered truly Southern anymore, since Latinos and the Spanish language have ”infiltrated” the country at large.
