North Carolina is the dividing line between Southern US, Mid-Atlantic, and Northern US. (transit, deal)
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Again, Charlotte, Durham and Raleigh are stereotyped for being less Southern than Birmingham and Montgomery because, by comparison, the major cities in NC have excessive concentrations of foreign immigrants and non-Southern transplants, which does make those cities less culturally Southern than cities where the original culture is still more in tact (see Birmingham and Montgomery). This phenomenon is not limited to the South, either.
When you are employed by a major corporation with an international presence, you will find that a plurality of your colleagues in North Carolina are originally from China, India, Nigeria, etc. If those colleagues were born in America, then there is a greater likelihood of them being originally from California, New York or Massachusetts than North Carolina (or another Southern state). From a relocation standpoint, it has been my experience that real Southerners prefer Georgia and Tennessee to North Carolina.
Additionally, there are well over one million Hispanic people, primarily from Cuba, Mexico and and the Central American countries, living in North Carolina as of 2023. If you are single and surf the online dating applications while visiting the North Carolina cities, you will find that every third profile belongs to a recent Hispanic immigrant. On social media websites, I am now receiving Spanish-language advertisements from realtors in Charlotte, probably directed at potential transplants from Florida. Hardly what I would call "Southern."
Yeah so I'm on several of the dating apps in probably the most transplant/immigrant heavy area of the state and this is complete BS.
Sounds like quite a bit of projection going on here....
"Truly Southern" is a stupid term in general. Unless it's the 1800's why would anyone even use definition? Every part of the USA has been losing its own distinct culture for decades. Globalization and especially with the internet, you've got a whole hodgepodge of individualism where external factors like "location" don't do much anymore. Also - if I can also say, regions of the USA are pretty much distinguished now by scenery and accents. Good luck trying to find "true" culture where everyone's local restaurants are the same 5 generic fast food restaurants.
I don't agree with you in terms of how you're defining things, but I also don't agree with the OP either.
I live in Appalachia. On one side of the state, sure, I'll give it to them. The Tide Water region definitely has a little mid-Atlantic feel to it, but overall it's still undeniably the South. A transitional area somewhat.
But WNC? No way in hell you'd ever define us as "only the South". As I said in a previous post, hop onto I-81. The interior part of states that surround the Appalachian area all relatively feel similar - albeit a different accent. There's areas of Upstate NY that have a relatively "similar feel" to areas around me.
You're proving my point...
I don't think there's such a thing as "truly Southern," which is why I find the whole exclusion of what is (no longer) Southern so facetious to begin with. The entire premise of this thread has been about trying to label NC as "Mid-Atlantic"/no longer Southern precisely because of other influences. Places evolve. NC can change and progress and reinvent itself-- it's still Southern.
And no one, at least not me, is claiming that WNC is "only the South." The South and Appalachia overlap to some extent, but each have their identities.
And about your first point, about everywhere becoming more globalized/homogenous, sure. But I don't find anyone claiming that parts comfortably within the Northern US are somehow a Southern transition zone.
Edit: Also, Charlotte isn't merely some "corporate hodgepodge." If you're not venturing outside Uptown or the burbs, that's no one's fault but your own. Charlotte isn't like Nashville or Charleston where the culture kind of serves itself to you right on a plate-- maybe go actually explore the neighborhoods sometime. There's a pretty distinctly Piedmont, largely Scots-Irish influence to be found.
Additionally, I'm confused by your claim that "truly Southern" is a stupid term, but also that Charleston is "100%" (coastal) Southern. Putting forth both assertions seems contradictory to me. Either you recognize that "truly Southern" holds little meaning/validity, or you claim the bit about being "100%" Southern, not both.
Last edited by TarHeelTerritory; 06-14-2023 at 08:41 PM..
The first great city of the old South was a French-Spanish infused metropolis. New Orleans was both unique and unquestionably Southern. The South has never been as uniform as people sometimes suppose.
If the "Mid-Atlantic" region includes such few states with Virginia being by far the largest, what's the point in having that as a separate region to begin with? I think a lot of it has to do with states not wanting to be associated with the South due to stereotypes. Virginia (NoVA NOT included) should go with the South. If there is a Mid-Atlantic, it's NoVA up through New Jersey and PA can be included in that as well. NY up to Maine can be the greater Northeast.
You got the right definition for the mid Atlantic though I wonder if nyc should be included
Richmond and Hampton Roads have been apart of the Mid Atlantic for hundreds of years. It's like you all make up your own definitions for things. Idk how you can exclude them when the Mid-Atlantic is based around the Delaware and Chesapeake bay...
"State capitals
Edit
Capital 2020 Census
1 Richmond, Virginia 226,610
2 Albany, New York 99,224
3 Trenton, New Jersey 90,871
4 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 50,099
5 Charleston, West Virginia 48,864
6 Annapolis, Maryland 40,812
7 Dover, Delaware 39,403
Note: The Mid-Atlantic region is also home to the nation's capital, Washington, D.C."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-At...tic_States.png
"States in dark red are traditionally included in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast regions, while states in pink are traditionally included in the Mid-Atlantic and Southeast regions."
No where in history has the Mid-Atlantic been "just NoVa." That's completely made up and ahistorical. I'm not sure if it's because you all think the Mid-Atlantic is synonymous with the North or what.
I think the issue is much of the first 200 years of American history don’t really cover anything called the Mid-Atlantic. There were the Middle Colonies (Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Delaware). And then the lead up to the Civil War involved slave states and free states and divided the future Mid-Atlantic in two. Then there were the Confederate states and the Union states that divided along similar (but not identical) lines. Only during the industrialization and immigration boom of the late 1800s were some semblance of a Mid-Atlantic identity formed. It’s still fairly fragile and not terribly well-defined, but generally it covers what was the Middle Colonies (at least Harrisburg on east) as well as the Chesapeake parts of Maryland and Virginia.
Probably best understood as a geographic signpost and less a cultural equivalent of a New England or the American Southwest. More like the Southeast, which has a known geographic definition but is really only a map-derived subset of a broader cultural region.
My point is that, in upscale neighborhoods of Lexington, Louisville, Memphis, etc., you're still going to hear Southern accents all of the time, whereas Southern accents are not as common in upscale neighborhoods of Charlotte and especially Raleigh.
100% true. No one we know well in Charlotte or Raleigh has a Southern accent. And many were born and raised in those towns so this is not a recent change since we’re in our 60s.
Richmond and Hampton Roads have been apart of the Mid Atlantic for hundreds of years. It's like you all make up your own definitions for things. Idk how you can exclude them when the Mid-Atlantic is based around the Delaware and Chesapeake bay...
"State capitals
Edit
Capital 2020 Census
1 Richmond, Virginia 226,610
2 Albany, New York 99,224
3 Trenton, New Jersey 90,871
4 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 50,099
5 Charleston, West Virginia 48,864
6 Annapolis, Maryland 40,812
7 Dover, Delaware 39,403
Note: The Mid-Atlantic region is also home to the nation's capital, Washington, D.C."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-At...tic_States.png
"States in dark red are traditionally included in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast regions, while states in pink are traditionally included in the Mid-Atlantic and Southeast regions."
No where in history has the Mid-Atlantic been "just NoVa." That's completely made up and ahistorical. I'm not sure if it's because you all think the Mid-Atlantic is synonymous with the North or what.
Richmond was literally the capital of the confederacy within the last 160 years.
That makes it not Mid-Atlantic? The first map I linked is from 1883. Also, what does the Confederacy have to do with the Mid-Atlantic? Nova was also part of the Confederacy.
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