Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The first great city of the old South was a French-Spanish infused metropolis. New Orleans was both unique and unquestionably Southern. The South has never been as uniform as people sometimes suppose.
Before you get into the North (broadly free) of Southern influence you’re in like Connecticut.
So it’s totally unreasonable to consider VA not southern and doubtful to exclude MD.
People have this inverse 1 drop rule for the South for some reason
That makes it not Mid-Atlantic? The first map I linked is from 1883. Also, what does the Confederacy have to do with the Mid-Atlantic? Nova was also part of the Confederacy.
It’s a geographic map, not much more. No one then or now think Danville and Albany were sharing much cultural coherence beyond generalized “American”.
It’s a geographic map, not much more. No one then or now think Danville and Albany were sharing much cultural coherence beyond generalized “American”.
See, y'all like to argue things I never said. All I said was, historically, Richmond has been included in the Mid-Atlantic. I did not say Richmond was not southern. I did not say Richmond was not apart of the Confederacy. I also did not say anything about Danville and Albany being similar. What I said was Virginia, even outside of Nova has been considered the Mid-Atlantic for a long time. I then provided proof of just that. Any thing else you are arguing past that is conjecture and has nothing to do with me. You don't believe the Mid-Atlantic is a term with any meaning. You are welcome to that opinion but that has nothing to do with what I posted. Argue that without quoting me.
FWIW, I actually agree that Mid-Atlantic is a nebulous term. However, regardless of that fact, in some way or form Virginia has long been considered apart of it from various accounts. That's a factual statement.
Houston Texas? come on when is that not considered the south? It is one of the Souths Premier cities and embodies so much of the southern cultural ethos that's never not considered part of the south the way that San Antonio is or maybe even Austin isn't/aren't...that's definitely the south and it's definitely more Hispanic than any North Carolina city. In fact they're the largest population group in Houston... They're 45% of the city. Even Fort Bend and Montgomery County that “feel more southern” are over a quarter Latino. No northeast or Midwest metro is that Hispanic.
We gotta stop this slipper slope somewhere..and it should be **well** before we get to debating if Houston is a southern city. I’m just saying by having Hispanics doesn’t make you not southern.
Austin is located in the south but to me, doesn't feel very southern. Houston may as well be in the deep southeast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpier015
Richmond is more mid-atlantic than NOVA. NOVA's culture is a lack of one distinct, identifiable culture. You all conflate being transplant heavy with being mid-atlantic.
I'm not saying Richmond isn't southern, but I hope you're not saying Nova is more southern than Richmond? Even with it's close proximity, the areas feel pretty different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl
Richmond was literally the capital of the confederacy within the last 160 years.
Austin is located in the south but to me, doesn't feel very southern. Houston may as well be in the deep southeast.
I'm not saying Richmond isn't southern, but I hope you're not saying Nova is more southern than Richmond? Even with it's close proximity, the areas feel pretty different.
Yep and DC was and is the capital of the union.
I definitely never said that. Also, Richmond was chosen as the capital of the Confederacy because of it's differences to the rest of the south. And it's proximity to DC. Lincoln held on to Maryland. But you all already knew all that. None of that has anything to do with what I said and none of that makes Richmond not the south. I am assuming it is your stance that only northern places can be also Mid-Atlantic? The Confederacy also included Nova.
See, y'all like to argue things I never said. All I said was, historically, Richmond has been included in the Mid-Atlantic. I did not say Richmond was not southern. I did not say Richmond was not apart of the Confederacy. I also did not say anything about Danville and Albany being similar. What I said was Virginia, even outside of Nova has been considered the Mid-Atlantic for a long time. I then provided proof of just that. Any thing else you are arguing past that is conjecture and has nothing to do with me. You don't believe the Mid-Atlantic is a term with any meaning. You are welcome to that opinion but that has nothing to do with what I posted. Argue that without quoting me.
FWIW, I actually agree that Mid-Atlantic is a nebulous term. However, regardless of that fact, in some way or form Virginia has long been considered apart of it from various accounts. That's a factual statement.
You said Richmond had been considered mid-Atlantic for centuries. But mid-Atlantic hasn’t really been a thing until the later stages of the 19th century. Your 1883 map looks to me like simply a map of states in the middle of the Atlantic Seaboard. It’s perhaps true Richmond was included by some as mid-Atlantic when they got around to trying to figure out what that meant, but I don’t think it was ever widely accepted.
For most people, I think mid-Atlantic is best understood as what it is not. It’s the area in between the more culturally understood regions of New England, the Midwest, and the South. Where people draw that line is a matter of opinion. Baltimore, Philly, and NY are probably the only sure thing places most everyone understand as mid-Atlantic.
I definitely never said that. Also, Richmond was chosen as the capital of the Confederacy because of it's differences to the rest of the south. And it's proximity to DC. Lincoln held on to Maryland. But you all already knew all that. None of that has anything to do with what I said and none of that makes Richmond not the south. I am assuming it is your stance that only northern places can be also Mid-Atlantic? The Confederacy also included Nova.
My stance is Nova north is not southern in feel and DC is firmly mid-Atlantic.
You said Richmond had been considered mid-Atlantic for centuries. But mid-Atlantic hasn’t really been a thing until the later stages of the 19th century. Your 1883 map looks to me like simply a map of states in the middle of the Atlantic Seaboard. It’s perhaps true Richmond was included by some as mid-Atlantic when they got around to trying to figure out what that meant, but I don’t think it was ever widely accepted.
For most people, I think mid-Atlantic is best understood as what it is not. It’s the area in between the more culturally understood regions of New England, the Midwest, and the South. Where people draw that line is a matter of opinion. Baltimore, Philly, and NY are probably the only sure thing places most everyone understand as mid-Atlantic.
I said hundreds of years. Perhaps I should have said for over a hundred years. The semantics sent you all into a Confederate frenzy. Got it lol. Also, not true. Some people, even is this thread, have questioned if NY should be included. I think its a bit disingenuous to view something as ill-defined while simultaneously trying to define it for me...
The first great city of the old South was a French-Spanish infused metropolis. New Orleans was both unique and unquestionably Southern. The South has never been as uniform as people sometimes suppose.
The first great city of the old South was definitely Baltimore. It was major before New Orleans, and it was a host for the 2nd Continental Congress
Yall think the US government being divided is a new thing, but they were so from the start. The house voted for a site in the north in (PA), while the senate wanted a southern capital and chose a site in Delaware.
The capital is where it is right now all because of 2 states- New York and Virginia.
Madison and Jefferson preferred a southern capital and in order to get enough votes for it they brokered a deal with Hamilton.
The federal government wanted to assume the debts incurred during the revolutionary war, but the south had already paid most of theirs and didn't want to be taxed again to chip in to help pay down a federal plan.
Jefferson brought Madison and Hamilton together and worked out a deal where the Virginia delegates would vote to pass Hamiltons plan to assume the debts if the New York delegates would vote to allow a southern capital.
The reason I bring up all of this is the country was much smaller back in the day. 100 years before Richmond was chosen as the capital of the confederacy, Virginia was already a powerful southern state. And Richmond wasn't seen as being on the edge of the south like yall try to make it now. It was deep in the south. Delaware maybe seen as a small transition area now, but back when the country was that tiny Delaware was the major transition zone.
Baltimore was thoroughly southern. It grew tobacco for trade for slaves. It was a major city long before New Orleans
The first great city of the old South was definitely Baltimore. It was major before New Orleans, and it was a host for the 2nd Continental Congress
Yall think the US government being divided is a new thing, but they were so from the start. The house voted for a site in the north in (PA), while the senate wanted a southern capital and chose a site in Delaware.
The capital is where it is right now all because of 2 states- New York and Virginia.
Madison and Jefferson preferred a southern capital and in order to get enough votes for it they brokered a deal with Hamilton.
The federal government wanted to assume the debts incurred during the revolutionary war, but the south had already paid most of theirs and didn't want to be taxed again to chip in to help pay down a federal plan.
Jefferson brought Madison and Hamilton together and worked out a deal where the Virginia delegates would vote to pass Hamiltons plan to assume the debts if the New York delegates would vote to allow a southern capital.
The reason I bring up all of this is the country was much smaller back in the day. 100 years before Richmond was chosen as the capital of the confederacy, Virginia was already a powerful southern state. And Richmond wasn't seen as being on the edge of the south like yall try to make it now. It was deep in the south. Delaware maybe seen as a small transition area now, but back when the country was that tiny Delaware was the major transition zone.
Baltimore was thoroughly southern. It grew tobacco for trade for slaves. It was a major city long before New Orleans
Baltimore is still thoroughly southern.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
