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I don't think any city suffers from the OMB's statistical bylaws more than Cleveland. Folks on this website often think that it's a peer of cities like Indy and CBUS because of that MSA number. I think it's misleading. I truly believe that if the Cuyahoga National Forest didn't great a black out zone for development between Cleveland and Akron they would be one single UA, and Cleveland's position among the City/MSA hierarchy would be far less vague.
Cleveland's CSA has 3,615,968* people in 6,437 sq mi. The Twin Cities MSA has 3,690,512* in 7000+ sq mi. With context obviously I know MSP is the bigger UA and more centralized region. I'm not necessarily saying that Cleveland belongs next to MSP on a comparison list. I do think that amount of people within it's sphere of influence should be considered when discussing Cleveland though.
*Numbers taken from census reporter website.
Also remember Cleveland doesn't have Youngstown (400k even when losing, rightfully Mercer County PA) even within its CSA even though it's 60 miles away.
Cleveland's new CSA is bloated AF, but still somehow doesn't count a metro one County over .... but does count areas that go from basically Michigan to Pa. and deep into Appalachia to the south, smh
Yall really feel metros are getting less centralized? All the jobs seem to be dying to locate in the primary city, hence the gentrification.
I don’t know about other states. But for every job in Houston or Dallas, 5 normally less paying jobs gets built out in the suburbs. I think there is a new concentration of residents in the city center. However in places that were historically job centers, there are more jobs than people. the influx of residents doesnt actually mean much. As there were always more jobs than people.
Even Austin with its hyper concentration is probably losing jobs as a percent of its metro every day to its suburbs. San Antonio might not be in that situation but it’s downtown probably isn’t gaining as much relative to outer neighborhoods. For example construction in Texas is a whole industry with 400,000 new residents a year minimum. That’s probably 70%+ new suburban build. Then all the stores that pop up in suburbia and some of them have new or existing and growing business parks like the Katy Area. Downtown Houston/Inner Loop isn’t doing bad but I don’t think it’s gaining over the Greater Katy-Energy Corridor-Fulshear Area let alone the other 10 suburban regions in Houston. The suburbs just get all sorts of job growth and also get to cash in on industrial/light manufacturing jobs that don’t have space to expand in the city.
Last edited by NigerianNightmare; 07-25-2023 at 12:21 AM..
Also remember Cleveland doesn't have Youngstown (400k even when losing, rightfully Mercer County PA) even within its CSA even though it's 60 miles away.
Cleveland's new CSA is bloated AF, but still somehow doesn't count a metro one County over .... but does count areas that go from basically Michigan to Pa. and deep into Appalachia to the south, smh
Youngstown is a 76 mile drive from Cleveland. It really really isn’t a suburb of Cleveland. Even Canton is 60 miles. Canton is daisy chained into Cleveland and really does not belong in the CSA.
Youngstown is a 76 mile drive from Cleveland. It really really isn’t a suburb of Cleveland. Even Canton is 60 miles. Canton is daisy chained into Cleveland and really does not belong in the CSA.
Disagreed. I think there are actually a decent number of folks in Canton who work or otherwise spent time in Cleveland. I myself have experience with such people. My family is also originally from Canton, no shortage of such people in Cleveland. Cultural sphere of influence, Canton undoubtedly relates to Cleveland. Historically there is honestly a ton of interchange between Canton, Akron, Cleveland, and Youngstown, Pittsburgh too even.
Disagreed. I think there are actually a decent number of folks in Canton who work or otherwise spent time in Cleveland. I myself have experience with such people. My family is also originally from Canton, no shortage of such people in Cleveland. Cultural sphere of influence, Canton undoubtedly relates to Cleveland. Historically there is honestly a ton of interchange between Canton, Akron, Cleveland, and Youngstown, Pittsburgh too even.
Cultural sphere of Influence and metro area are quite different things, the Bruins have weekend matinees often for their Maine Fans but I don’t think People would be willing to call Biddeford suburban Boston. Or Peter Pan’s flagship route are out of Boston despite being based in Springfield. But Springfield is not Metro Boston.
I agree Cleveland has cache over a braid area but it’s area of economic dominance is pretty accurately covered by its MSA (with a rounding error for the fact significant population lives just over the county line this chopped off).
And BTW I don’t literally mean Canton literally doesn’t belong in Cleveland’s CSA. It meets Criteria what I more mean is the CSA which runs from Toledo to the PA border and from Lake Erie to central Ohio is not really “Cleveland” but just a general area in which Cleveland is the largest city. Just like Aberdeen MD or Hanover PA are in the “DC CSA” but are in no meaningful way suburban DC.
If you had more cities like Cleveland, Boston, New Haven and DC the CSA list would be totally baffling. Amy CSA that matches the prominence of the city is typically because the CSA is so marginally different than the MSA it basically doesn’t matter. Even now that we removed ~1.3 million from the NYC CSA, LA is nearly the size of New York. Which really shouldn’t be so.
Last edited by btownboss4; 07-25-2023 at 06:00 AM..
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The Washington CSA is called Washington-Baltimore-Arlington, those are now 3 individual Metro divisions of their own, DC is just a lead more populous MSA so it gets the name. Aberdeen is Harford County part of Baltimore's MSA therefore part of the CSA. Make no mistake though I've known commuters leave metro DC to go work in Aberdeen every day at the proving grounds there.
The Washington CSA is called Washington-Baltimore-Arlington, those are now 3 individual Metro divisions of their own, DC is just a lead more populous MSA so it gets the name. Aberdeen is Harford County part of Baltimore's MSA therefore part of the CSA. Make no mistake though I've known commuters leave metro DC to go work in Aberdeen every day at the proving grounds there.
Yeah it’s a general region with DC in it, not the DC region. However the latter is how people interpret CSA’s. It’s really not a measure that tells you anything about DC itself. Just like New Haven isn’t a city if 2.6 million. You know, larger than Cincinnati.
Cultural sphere of Influence and metro area are quite different things, the Bruins have weekend matinees often for their Maine Fans but I don’t think People would be willing to call Biddeford suburban Boston. Or Peter Pan’s flagship route are out of Boston despite being based in Springfield. But Springfield is not Metro Boston.
I agree Cleveland has cache over a braid area but it’s area of economic dominance is pretty accurately covered by its MSA (with a rounding error for the fact significant population lives just over the county line this chopped off).
And BTW I don’t literally mean Canton literally doesn’t belong in Cleveland’s CSA. It meets Criteria what I more mean is the CSA which runs from Toledo to the PA border and from Lake Erie to central Ohio is not really “Cleveland” but just a general area in which Cleveland is the largest city. Just like Aberdeen MD or Hanover PA are in the “DC CSA” but are in no meaningful way suburban DC.
If you had more cities like Cleveland, Boston, New Haven and DC the CSA list would be totally baffling. Amy CSA that matches the prominence of the city is typically because the CSA is so marginally different than the MSA it basically doesn’t matter. Even now that we removed ~1.3 million from the NYC CSA, LA is nearly the size of New York. Which really shouldn’t be so.
I think there can be a distinction between metropolitan area and what CSA measures. CSA does take its first name entry from the largest city in the region. I might have missed this somehow, but I don't think Toledo is part of the Cleveland CSA or at least I can't find reference to that. In terms of geography, the expanse puts the Cleveland CSA in northeast Ohio which is an actual term used in the region. The census doesn't generally give official names for regions outside of the principal cities, but it's reasonable to consider the CSA to be the northeast Ohio region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Yeah it’s a general region with DC in it, not the DC region. However the latter is how people interpret CSA’s. It’s really not a measure that tells you anything about DC itself. Just like New Haven isn’t a city if 2.6 million. You know, larger than Cincinnati.
I don't think there are all that many making the argument that CSA is the same thing as a city.
I think as a larger region Central CT Hartford and New Haven are better connected and closer to each other than Dayton and Cincinnati are, and do operate more closely as a region.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-25-2023 at 07:54 AM..
I think there can be a distinction between metropolitan area and what CSA measures. CSA does take its first name entry from the largest city in the region. I might have missed this somehow, but I don't think Toledo is part of the Cleveland CSA or at least I can't find reference to that. In terms of geography, the expanse puts the Cleveland CSA in northeast Ohio which is an actual term used in the region. The census doesn't generally give official names for regions outside of the principal cities, but it's reasonable to consider the CSA to be the northeast Ohio region.
I don't think there are all that many making the argument that CSA is the same thing as a city.
I think as a larger region Central CT Hartford and New Haven are better connected and closer to each other than Dayton and Cincinnati are, and do operate more closely as a region.
I think they should change the names to CSA’s to reflect that they’re general regions. Like I don’t think many people would object to Western Chesapeake or Northern Ohio or South Central New England. Philly already died this being called the “Delaware Valley”. Because it doesn’t really belong to a city there are just cities in it. Boston’s CSA is 7 constituent parts.
Another example is the UK have metropolitan boroughs. But Newcastle is Tyneside because Newcastle is the largest city in Tyneside but isn’t Tyneside. Birmingham is in the West Midlands. Because Birmingham is part of the West Midlands while London is London so it’s called Greater London.
I think they should change the names to CSA’s to reflect that they’re general regions. Like I don’t think many people would object to Western Chesapeake or Northern Ohio or South Central New England. Philly already died this being called the “Delaware Valley”. Because it doesn’t really belong to a city there are just cities in it. Boston’s CSA is 7 constituent parts.
Another example is the UK have metropolitan boroughs. But Newcastle is Tyneside because Newcastle is the largest city in Tyneside but isn’t Tyneside. Birmingham is in the West Midlands. Because Birmingham is part of the West Midlands while London is London so it’s called Greater London.
Not all names fit though.
I wouldn't call Stockton, Modesto or Santa Rosa the SF Bay area. Sure there is connection, but the SF Bay area name doesn't fit
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