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There are plenty of urban Twin Cities suburbs that have their own historic downtowns like Anoka, Robbinsdale, Edina, Hopkins, Wayzata, Excelsior, White Bear Lake, Shakopee, North Saint Paul, Chaska, Rosemount, Osseo, Columbia Heights, Prior Lake, and Lakeville. And that's not including exurban metro communities like Elk River, Rogers, Farmington, Jordan, Hastings, Forest Lake, Saint Michael, Waconia, Northfield, and Stillwater.
Yes, the outer-ring suburbs and exurbs are mostly cookie-cutter suburbia, but much of the first and second ring suburbs are older and more established as individual communities. It's disingenuous to claim Twin Cities suburbia is "sterile".
It may seem that way if one is born in the twin cities, but there is no comparison to older cities. Even take a Chicago…so many suburban downtowns built around the train station into the city. So many mom and pop ethnic restaurants with a sense of community and almost an independence even. A downtown lakeville or rosemount or prior lake, despite claims of uniqueness, really don’t compare to truly unique and quaint suburbs of some older cities. Outside of a small node, they aren’t really complete or dense enough, and in many respects don’t even serve as the central gathering hub for those respective suburbs.
Think Scranton, Wilkes-Barre, Philadelphia, Baltimore, among others. All were heavy industry centers that were greatly affected by the decline in the steel industry and deindustrialization.
You're also missing most of Upstate NY, NJ, and many cities in Southern New England.
The "Rust Belt" in its purist form is any region or locale that deindustrialized and hasn't entirely recovered its former economic vitality.
I'm not sure why so many give NY, NJ and New England a "pass" in that regard, but they certainly qualify in plenty of places.
I'm more than willing to even put out there that PA's cities are in better shape on average than NJ's and CT's, and honestly no worse than MA's and NY's.
PA has put an unfathomable amount of money and effort towards urban revitalization and stabilization over the past 40 years, and it's gone a long way.
Here's an interesting chart. Midwest, Rustbelt, and adjacent metros showing their 1950 populations, and then their 2020 populations. This is based on the actual census bureau definitions of their metros at each census. It's not an apples to apples comparison(that would involve comparing their current county alignments at both census's). Almost all of these metro's had multiple counties added to their MSA's over time. I believe Youngstown is the only one that didn't, and it just lost the PA county as of the 2023 alignment. If I had used that alignment, Youngstown would be the only metro that's actually smaller than it was in 1950. It's an interesting look at how these MSA's sprawled, or perhaps their influence in their respective regions grew over time. I ranked them based on percentage growth largest to smallest.
For the most part the list follows the logic of what I'd call the Rustbelt "spectrum" with the rustiest at the bottom. There are some exceptions (namely Chicago and Grand Rapids).
Please note I included a few cities that I don't consider rustbelt or midwest for comparisons sake. Please don't split hairs by arguing on what metro's may or may not belong here as that's not the point. I plan on making a similar core city chart for this as well, but the data collection process is a little more involved so I'll have to get back to it.
Last edited by Landolakes90; 08-10-2023 at 06:37 AM..
I'm not sure why so many give NY, NJ and New England a "pass" in that regard, but they certainly qualify in plenty of places.
I'm more than willing to even put out there that PA's cities are in better shape on average than NJ's and CT's, and honestly no worse than MA's and NY's.
PA has put an unfathomable amount of money and effort towards urban revitalization and stabilization over the past 40 years, and it's gone a long way.
Albany
Allentown
Bethlehem
Grand Rapids
Lancaster
Lowell
Scranton
Worcester
Medium-performing
Akron
Binghamton
Hamilton
Kalamazoo
Muncie
South Bend
Springfield
Syracuse
Low-performing
Camden
Dayton
Flint
Gary
Lima
Pontiac
York
Youngstown
Allentown, Bethlehem, Lancaster and Scranton were all high-performing cities. York was a conspicuous outlier, but even it doesn't look terrible on Google Street View. Likewise with Erie and Williamsport, which weren't analyzed. In fact, the only cities in Pennsylvania that I'm concerned about are Johnstown and Altoona.
I got a chuckle out of that link. It lists proximity to larger and more economically robust urban hubs as a critical ingredient for the top performing cities that were listed. It then proceeds to mention Grand Rapids is 70 miles from Lansing. Umm, Lansing is much smaller than GR and there isn't much of a relationship between the two cities. I don't think that's a reason as to why GR is in the high performing category.
What I was kinda going for with this question initially before the definitions got tangled up was to ask what’s the difference living in a place like Detroit or Cleveland where the city itself has declined substantially as opposed to a place where the city center is more prosperous like Minneapolis? I’d imagine that for example after sports games, people who live in the Detroit suburbs go straight back after seeing a game. What are some other differences in day to day life and the culture of a region that come from the differences between rust belt and non rust belt Midwest?
People from Detroit’s suburbs will most certainly stay downtown after a game and go to the multiple bars and restaurants that are there to enjoy. Downtown Detroit is actually very nice, clean and pretty safe, and has many attractions that are popular with its residents and suburbanites. Many of the neighbourhoods around downtown are also very popular and on the upswing. It’s mainly the areas outside of those that are still depopulating and struggling.
People from Detroit’s suburbs will most certainly stay downtown after a game and go to the multiple bars and restaurants that are there to enjoy. Downtown Detroit is actually very nice, clean and pretty safe, and has many attractions that are popular with its residents and suburbanites. Many of the neighbourhoods around downtown are also very popular and on the upswing. It’s mainly the areas outside of those that are still depopulating and struggling.
The inner ring suburbs have also seen some losses start to stack up, Warren, Inkster, Hazel Park, Ecorse, Wyandotte, etc.
The inner ring suburbs have also seen some losses start to stack up, Warren, Inkster, Hazel Park, Ecorse, Wyandotte, etc.
That’s not a Detroit centric problem. The vast majority of inner ring suburbs across the country are in similar boats in terms of matured built environments and stagnation. Little ole Louisville for example, has some inner ring suburbs that would give Wyandotte and Warren a run for their money lol. Also yes before anyone tries to counter with examples of street car suburbs that are all inner ring and classy, Detroit has those as well a la the Grosse Pointes.
How about places like Camden, Trenton, and Newark, NJ do people not consider them rustbelt anymore?
They absolutely have a Rust Belt character; no question.
Same with Brooklyn, Syracuse, Utica, Rochester, Springfield, Waterbury, New Haven, Bridgeport, Fall River, New Bedford, Pawtucket, Worcester, Lowell, New London, Providence etc. The list goes on. These were all manufacturing hubs at one time and have had to grapple with deindustrialization.
Of course, some have weathered the trajectory much earlier and better than others, but the same challenges with economic stagnation and transition are all universal.
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