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From a personal standpoint, going back 8 generations in our family, every generation at least one, has served in the military to present. I joined, not drafted, and served 21 years, son joined after 9/11 (not for a job as he had a MS degree) and was deployed several times. Why? I guess some of us feel it is our duty to preserve the freedoms our forefathers died for and to preserve them for future generations. Maybe I am a minority, but I still get a tear in my eye when the national anthem is played, or another soldier is fallen in Iraq or Afghanistan. Patriotism, love or country, I am proud to say that is important to me and my family.
I don't think you are in the minority. Even people with no history of military service tear up at the national anthem.
I am proud of the United States. I think it usually sets a good example in the world. I'm glad I live here, and I'm happy that there are people like you who fight so that I don't have to. I don't think anyone is proposing that patriotism or loyalty to one's country is bad, the OP's question is whether a lack of patriotism is bad.
Sure, if there's some evil aggressor invading the land, sweeping the globe with totalitarianism that means the only/best way to defend my family is to join "the armies of freedom" then almost ANYONE would fight, but things are rarely so black-and-white.
Then again, supposedly we exercise our military in foreign lands to keep such "evil" from coming to power. And I can't really say whether that's wrong or right. Maybe the Iraq and Afghan wars did prevent some despot from taking over the world. Or maybe they're evidence that we, ourselves, are becoming the evil empire.
I don't know the answers to these questions and I don't have the underlying conviction to just choose a path (patriotic, anti-patriotic) and just run with it, as many do. There are just too many variables.
Right-wingers tell me we're at war and threatened by left-wingers, left-wingers tell me the right-wingers are the real threat. They're probably both right to some degree, but I'm skeptical. What I do know is that it's a good thing to build up the economic power and improve the lives of the people around me, so that's what I focus on, rather than who we should be fighting. Maybe that's immoral, wrong, weak, or stupid but it is the path I choose at this point in my life. When I was younger I was different, when I get older, I'll probably change again. I'm probably not going to change my convictions (or lack thereof) quickly based on the ideas of other people but I'm enjoying hearing everyone's opinions.
The main purpose of any nation is defense. Without defense, we can't survive, so I would say no one should live in a nation they don't feel some degree of allegiance towards. Otherwise, they can't be trusted. There are leftists who believe we are all one world and one species, so we should not divide ourselves up into nations. But they are living in a fantasy. We need the friction of nations banging against each other, because a world government would be all powerful and impossible to oppose.
I used to be more patriotic. I think the cover up during the Kennedy assassination opened my eyes a lot, to think that the government may have somehow been involved, or at the very least, involved in a whitewash cover up.
I used to support capitalism, the system that made the country great, until administration after administration, jobs were allowed to go overseas. The government satisfied the needs of major corporations to the point of lowering the American lifestyle.
This is both political parties.
Today I think you have to be a bit of a fool to be patriotic, it's like kissing the hand that beats you.
It's all about money these days. Most people don't vote for the benefit of the country. They vote their own economic self interest. Who can afford to get idealistic these days?
[quote=goldengrain;19822881]I used to support capitalism, the system that made the country great, until administration after administration, jobs were allowed to go overseas. The government satisfied the needs of major corporations to the point of lowering the American lifestyle.
[quote]
Somebody brought up in another post a different take on this subject than I had heard before. They said that Americans were becoming too well off and educated to accept the lower pay jobs that are more prolifically sent overseas, not just unwilling or arrogant. I think that is interesting. I also wonder if there are some statistics to support that.
[quote=goldengrain;19822881]Today I think you have to be a bit of a fool to be patriotic, it's like kissing the hand that beats you. [quote]
What is the alternative, Costa Rica or Northern Europe? I suppose the easy answer is not to think too much about it. Uh-oh, my a-pathetic slip is showing.
Not sure if patriotism is the right word but is there anything wrong with a person who, regardless of country of origin, goes about his/her own life normally but deep down doesn't give a damn about his/her own country?
This person may have good intentions and will work to better mankind but completely rejects the notion of a nation and/or is completely oblivious or indifferent towards nationalism.
I have always heard if that you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything. To me, this means you need to have a loyalty to SOMETHING that does not change or is VERY difficult to change. Not being loyal to a country, state or something would be like playing baseball without homeplate or having a car without a steering wheel.
I would argue that defense is a main objective of a nation. And even if it were, 75% of the budget dedicated to defense is a bit high in my opinion. I would also disagree that fighting an unnecessary war is part of a defensive strategy. And further, the fantasy of no nation-states sounds like a terrific, however utopian world. Just because we cannot envision a form of government that does not exploit its citizens does not mean that it is not possible.
I also fully support competition and the capitalistic mentality. If I were a scholar or a philosopher I might be able to better envision a world where "think before you shoot" is the norm, not the perceived weaker exception.
But this is only a discussion after all...
We need competition between nations in the same way we need competition between businesses. When a business has a monopoly it can give poor service at high prices. When one nation is too powerful, as the US has been since WWII, it can push other nations around. There has to be a balance of power, even though it is dangerous and precarious. That's life.
I agree the US defense budget is too high, and that is because we have been the world leader for too long.
Longing for a world without nation states, where citizens are not exploited, is like longing for a world without gravity. It doesn't matter how hard you wish, there are laws of nature that human beings cannot change.
If there were only one world government, I guarantee you citizens would be treated unfairly. Short of colonizing other planets, there would be nowhere to escape to.
The only probelm may come when something like WWII comes along again.But don't be shocked when others of like mind do not believe they owe you anything just by fact of being born in the same country as they were. That is part of the new global economy and society also happening now days.
"Somebody brought up in another post a different take on this subject than I had heard before. They said that Americans were becoming too well off and educated to accept the lower pay jobs that are more prolifically sent overseas, not just unwilling or arrogant. I think that is interesting. I also wonder if there are some statistics to support that."
I think, like higher paying jobs, the market in capitalism is supposed to determine pay. I mean all of those lower paying jobs, not getting the American worker, would have to raise the pay - the way they do it for professionals and executives. The politicians, instead of letting the US market determine wages, 'decided' to go overseas or import low paying workers to fill these positions, raising the middle finger to the American poor.
My own parents were once share croppers and here I am, with my MBA. My family diligently worked to better their condition, saved, bought houses for cash, etc. They applied themselves and moved ahead, taking advantages of opportunities along the way. I tried to do the same, working my way through school. The point is, we did start there, at the bottom or close to it. So many doors seemed to have closed to Americans, wanting to be upwardly mobile, these days.
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