Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Chlorine gas is highly toxic and was used as a very debilitating and deadly weapon in WWI. Sodium Chloride (compound with equal parts sodium and chlorine) is common table salt and has been used for millennia to preserve and flavor food.
Methyl alcohol (methanol) is deadly to humans if ingested. Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is consumed by humans all over the planet every day in the form of beer, wine, whisky, and even medicines like cough syrup.
Elemental mercury is highly toxic to humans. Methylmercury, an organic compound produced in the environment by organic processes is also highly toxic and it does bioaccumulate (it stays in the body, so repeated tiny exposures build up over time).
Thimerosal is a preservative (antifungal and antiseptic) that is used in products ranging from some vaccines, to tattoo inks, to skin test antigens (allergy clinics). It degenerates in the body into ethyl mercury, which is as different from methyl mercury as ethyl alcohol is from methyl alcohol, and as different from mercury as chlorine gas is from table salt.
This is like the thing going around on Facebook warning people to never eat margarine because it is "only one molecule different than plastic!!!"
I realize that not everyone understands chemistry, but ones who don't really need to stop spreading nonsense.
You do not have to do titers to determine failure rates. Effectiveness rates can be calculated from large populations, and the coverage rate that confers herd immunity can be calculated. Herd immunity helps protect anyone who is not immune, whether due to being too young for the vaccine, being immunocompromised, having the vaccine fail, or even not having been given the vaccine because a parent did not want it. If herd immunity is maintained, the disease cannot circulate. Right now, the US is maintaining measles herd immunity by the skin of its teeth, and measles seen here is being imported from countries where there is inadequate immunization and herd immunity has collapsed or was never established. If immunization rates drop further here, we will see a resurgence of measles as it again becomes endemic.
If the vaccine failed, the person who got sick anyway had performed his duty to try to protect others (by taking the vaccine), as long as he did not deliberately expose others while he was sick. So if a parent knowingly exposed others to his child with chickenpox, even if it was due to vaccine failure, he would be guilty of negligence. For example, if the vaccinated child with chickenpox attended a party before he developed symptoms but exposed other kids because he was infectious but not known to be ill, that is unavoidable and not negligent. The mom who takes a kid with known chickenpox out in public or invites other kids to her home to play with her sick child is negligent.
The parent who chooses not to vaccinate has not performed his duty to protect others.
We demand that people who drive negligently be responsible for the consequences of their actions. People who do not vaccinate need to be willing to accept the consequences of their actions, too.
I don't believe effectiveness rates can be calculated from large populations. I know very few adults who get boosters. I even know nurses who don't. I didn't. My measles titer revealed a lack of immunity during a pregnancy. How many years had I walked around with no measles immunity? How many adults are walking around with no immunity to diseases? We have no idea because we don't routinely test titers.
People who advocate forced vaccines should be forced to pay for the care and therapy of children who are damaged by a vaccine.
[mod]Against Great Debates guidelines[/mod]They refuse scientific evidence because they think they are smart enough to simply dismiss anything they don't understand as hogwash. I am completely for compelling people to vaccinate and treating refusals as child abuse.
As embarrassing as it is to admit, that was me . The fact is that the average person does not know how to distinguish quality science from junk science, and people like me who confused a Gish-Gallop of links for "evidence". My oldest child went without vaccines from 10 months to 6 years; my middle kid did not get a single vaccine until she was 3 years old; my youngest has been vaccinated pretty much on schedule. Vax to the max, flu shots and all.
Even the headline of the link you provide (above) is wrong. There is no "autism study". Period. End of story. It doesn't exist.
THE PAPER FOUND NO LINK BETWEEN THE MMR AND SUDDEN ONSET BOWEL DISEASE. If you want to say it is a fraud - so be it - the paper that found no link between the mmr and sudden onset bowel disease is a fraud. It is NOT about autism.
You are parroting the media by calling it an autism study. Autism was NOT a reason for research in the case studies.
The parents reported the autism. The researchers wrote it down in the files. Nothing was fabricated. The "fraud" was actually an ethical issue - journalist brian deer and others had issues with the way Wakefield found a control group for blood samples. He used volunteers at a birthday party.
There are thousands and thousands of parents all over the world who saw illness and regression following the MMR. I want to hear more from them. The world needs to hear more from them. Science needs to study those children and tell me there is no link.
Actually, the bowel disease he "discovered" was referred to as autistic enterocolitis in his 1998 paper. And while the paper did not claim MMR was a possible cause, it was at the press release for the paper that Wakefield suggested it was, and also made the bold statement of recommending the discontinuation of the MMR.
I saw this written by Dr. Roy Benaroch. It is a parable about vaccination. My question is do you agree? Or are you against vaccinations. If you are against, please explain why.
Ron was puzzled. He had been a mechanic for many years, and had known Ms. McCarthy through two previous vehicles. But what could he say to a request like this?
I can't see the correlation between the story linked about getting work done on a car and getting children vaccinated against communicable disease. Getting a car worked on is a lot different then deciding on a medication to get injected into one's body or one's children's bodies. There are a lot of factors to consider and it's not a cut and dry, all in or all out decision as far as I am concerned.
First thing to consider is the disease itself. What are the risks of getting said disease? What are the complications? What is the death rate? Are there any other things we can do to effectively reduce the risk of death and/or complications if in fact we are exposed? Is there anything we can do to decrease our exposure?
What was the death rate for the disease before and after the implementation of vaccines? How effective is the vaccine?
What are the ingredients in the vaccine? What are the potential risks of the vaccine?
Some vaccines like the flu vaccine and the chicken pox vaccine are not worth it for my kids, in my opinion. Other vaccines warrant much stronger consideration. I firmly believe that the choice to get vaccinated or not should lie with each individual family. I would never support measures to mandate vaccines without any way to opt out. People should always have the freedom to say no to medical interventions that they do not agree with, especially when the medical intervention is injected into their bodies. People own their bodies, not the government.
Even the headline of the link you provide (above) is wrong. There is no "autism study". Period. End of story. It doesn't exist.
THE PAPER FOUND NO LINK BETWEEN THE MMR AND SUDDEN ONSET BOWEL DISEASE. If you want to say it is a fraud - so be it - the paper that found no link between the mmr and sudden onset bowel disease is a fraud. It is NOT about autism.
You are parroting the media by calling it an autism study. Autism was NOT a reason for research in the case studies.
The parents reported the autism. The researchers wrote it down in the files. Nothing was fabricated. The "fraud" was actually an ethical issue - journalist brian deer and others had issues with the way Wakefield found a control group for blood samples. He used volunteers at a birthday party.
There are thousands and thousands of parents all over the world who saw illness and regression following the MMR. I want to hear more from them. The world needs to hear more from them. Science needs to study those children and tell me there is no link.
"THE "WAKEFIELD" STUDIES: STUDIES HYPOTHESIZING THAT MMR CAUSES AUTISM
Dr. Paul Offit, M.D., FAAP, Chief of Infectious Diseases and Director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Those who claim that MMR causes autism often cite two papers by Andrew Wakefield and colleagues."
"The first Wakefield paper
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and colleagues published a paper in the Lancet titled "Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children."(1) Wakefield's hypothesis was that the MMR vaccine causes a series of events that include intestinal inflammation, loss of intestinal barrier function, entrance into the bloodstream of encephalopathic proteins, and consequent development of autism. In support of his hypothesis, Dr. Wakefield described 12 children with neurodevelopmental delay (8 with autism). All of these children had gastrointestinal complaints and developed autism within 1 month of receiving MMR."
"The second Wakefield paper
In 2002, Wakefield and coworkers published a 2nd paper examining the relationship between measles virus and autism."
Both papers "studied" autism.
Dr. Offitt discusses the flaws in the papers/studies.
Both papers are considered "studies".
Children all over the world have been studied and no link between autism and vaccines has been found,
Actually, the bowel disease he "discovered" was referred to as autistic enterocolitis in his 1998 paper. And while the paper did not claim MMR was a possible cause, it was at the press release for the paper that Wakefield suggested it was, and also made the bold statement of recommending the discontinuation of the MMR.
Wakefield, a gastroenterologist, scoped all of the children. There were lesions in the kids' guts. The stained slides under a microscope revealed not Crohns or celiac or some other known disease, but something new, and the lesions were positive for the live measles virus from the vaccine.
He recommended stopping the MMR until science could look further. What else was he supposed to theorize? What else he should have done?
Having had chicken pox before the vaccine was available, I am here to tell you that immunity is too late. The varicella virus is alive and well in my nervous system, and I have suffered through a terrible episode of shingles because of it. I have had the shingles vaccine, which just boosts the immune system but does not clear the virus. I have my fingers crossed that I never have to deal with such pain again.
I had an office mate who refused to get the free flu vaccine provided by the company. They even had a nurse come on-site to administer it. He claimed he had never had the flu in his life. That winter he went through "the worst cold he had ever had," which was obviously the flu, while I sat in the same office with him and didn't catch anything. He missed four days of work and was coughing and hacking for a month with his "cold." Unvaccinated people catch the flu all the time, they just don't admit what they have.
My husband had shingles a few years ago. His mother, father, and aunt also had shingles. ALL had very mild cases of it. My husband thought he had poison ivy; not the excruciating PAIN that the commercials say to push the vaccination. This could be YOU!!!!
Nobody in my family ever had shingles; from my parents to aunts and uncles. Given my husband's family history and mine for shingles, maybe GENES (besides compromised immune system) plays a part in it???? Of course, science doesn't want to talk about that one because they want to promote vaccinations. Science cannot change your genes, yet, so they don't talk about that one.
My husband had shingles a few years ago. His mother, father, and aunt also had shingles. ALL had very mild cases of it. My husband thought he had poison ivy; not the excruciating PAIN that the commercials say to push the vaccination. This could be YOU!!!!
Nobody in my family ever had shingles; from my parents to aunts and uncles. Given my husband's family history and mine for shingles, maybe GENES (besides compromised immune system) plays a part in it???? Of course, science doesn't want to talk about that one because they want to promote vaccinations. Science cannot change your genes, yet, so they don't talk about that one.
My husband had shingles this past Christmas and it was pretty painful. And Science is not a person who talks about A, B, C, or D. Science is a methodology, an approach to knowledge that enables us to understand and make use of the world around us. With that said, just don't take any meds. High blood pressure, high cholesterol, MS, cancer, a headache, whatever your ailment may be. Just let nature take its course.
I also do not understand what you mean by not changing your genes. Here's a fun article...
Wakefield, a gastroenterologist, scoped all of the children. There were lesions in the kids' guts. The stained slides under a microscope revealed not Crohns or celiac or some other known disease, but something new, and the lesions were positive for the live measles virus from the vaccine.
He recommended stopping the MMR until science could look further. What else was he supposed to theorize? What else he should have done?
I don't know how much of the GMC transcripts you've read, but there was enough testimony to support the assertion that his methodology was very sloppy, so much so that no one else has been able to replicate his findings. It was actually in his 2002 paper that he claimed to find lesions present with measles virus genome, and his research assistant testified to the cross-contamination issues with the testing, and how Wakefield only included data that supported his theory. Again, despite attempts at replication, Wakefield is the only one who has ever detected the presence of this measles genome. The reasonable conclusion is: either he is lying, or everyone else is.
Calling for the withdrawal of the MMR, based on the results of a very small case study, is ballsy and completely unethical. Not only because there was no alternative vaccine (aside form the one Wakefield himself was in the process of developing...), but because he incited a frenzy that still has not died down nearly 20 years later. He had absolutely NO authority to make that call, and chose to blindside the medical community and the general public in one fell swoop.
Last edited by Ginge McFantaPants; 06-04-2014 at 06:37 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. The fact is that the average person does not know how to distinguish quality science from junk science, and people like me who confused a Gish-Gallop of links for "evidence". My oldest child went without vaccines from 10 months to 6 years; my middle kid did not get a single vaccine until she was 3 years old; my youngest has been vaccinated pretty much on schedule. Vax to the max, flu shots and all.
