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If torture isn't worth it, why has it been around so long? And why is it used all over the world? Has everyone in recorded time been stupid? Or are they all sadists?
That torture is still around only makes sense if it works. Not all the time, but enough that it continues to be used.
If America is what it claims to be it cannot support torture. Civilized countries don't torture people and there are no "ifs ands or buts" about it. Anyone who supports the use of torture by our government does not really believe in a system of laws or justice. They simply support the naked use of force against anyone whom the executive claims is a terrorist. Please note that since no trial or adjudication has occurred, the person may not actually be a terrorist either.
I will go further than that. I am ashamed to live in a country with anyone who supports the use of torture. I would invite such people to go find a nation that does not have a Constitution which protects its citizens in the Eighth Amendment from "cruel and unusual punishments". You can leave and I will be thrilled.
From a practical standpoint, torture is ineffective. John McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese and said as much. He provided false information to the enemy simply to get them to stop. Some assert KSM confessed because of waterboarding. Others believe we already had the same information. In any event, I challenge anyone to prove exactly what lives were saved because of these practices against KSM or any other member of Al Quaeda. Sorry, references to unnamed, unknown CIA agents who don't provide details are insufficient. Unless you can supply specifics your argument merits no consideration. These people could simply be protecting themselves or trying to justify something that they have begun to question in their own mind.
The USA is the signatory of international treaties and agreements that prohibit the use of torture. If we won't abide by these agreements than why should other countries? Why should other countries believe we will abide by any international treaty or agreement that we enter into?
Dick Cheney can try and tell me until he drops dead of another heart attack that waterboarding isn't torture. B.S. It damn well is and he knows it. What a sad day that George W. Bush became President of this country. The day that fool left office was a day to raise a glass of champagne in the air.
This gets to the heart of the matter,"we", that's to say us Americans, can't really have much of a meaningful discussion about the utility of torture unless it's in the realm of BS or bar talk. To advocate for it's use is simply ignoring the fact of prior treaties signed by our government that do prohibit such methods of interrogation, Dick Cheney's statements on this matter only serve as a revealing look into the kind of man he was, and that is the fact that he himself advocated for the kind of treatment he was supposed to be against.
This entire matter is testimony to the fact that America wandered from it's path of righteous direction when confronted with a different type of warfare, our government has done these things in the past (Vietnam) when engaged in guerrilla warfare while sticking to an outdated form of strategy and action in combat. We are supposed to be the rulers in America, that is to say we the people direct the government by providing the foundation of principles by which we wish to be governed, not the other way around as Cheney would desire it.
Looking at the history of Dick Cheney's life it is no wonder that he holds these personal convictions to be an acceptable compass for his decisions, whether in business or government Cheney held tight to the notion that he and others of his ilk knew better than us, the people he was supposed to serve. This kind of thinking unfortunately is common to most political types, across the divide of party politics most of our pols think of themselves as a kind of master instead of being the servant they are supposed to be...
Why is there so much carrying on over this" torture' ? It certainly was not a well kept secret. Now with the report it is a big deal. Where are all the people worldwide who should be screaming about all the beheadings that are happening??
If America is what it claims to be it cannot support torture. Civilized countries don't torture people and there are no "ifs ands or buts" about it. Anyone who supports the use of torture by our government does not really believe in a system of laws or justice. They simply support the naked use of force against anyone whom the executive claims is a terrorist. Please note that since no trial or adjudication has occurred, the person may not actually be a terrorist either.
I will go further than that. I am ashamed to live in a country with anyone who supports the use of torture. I would invite such people to go find a nation that does not have a Constitution which protects its citizens in the Eighth Amendment from "cruel and unusual punishments". You can leave and I will be thrilled.
From a practical standpoint, torture is ineffective. John McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese and said as much. He provided false information to the enemy simply to get them to stop. Some assert KSM confessed because of waterboarding. Others believe we already had the same information. In any event, I challenge anyone to prove exactly what lives were saved because of these practices against KSM or any other member of Al Quaeda. Sorry, references to unnamed, unknown CIA agents who don't provide details are insufficient. Unless you can supply specifics your argument merits no consideration. These people could simply be protecting themselves or trying to justify something that they have begun to question in their own mind.
The USA is the signatory of international treaties and agreements that prohibit the use of torture. If we won't abide by these agreements than why should other countries? Why should other countries believe we will abide by any international treaty or agreement that we enter into?
Dick Cheney can try and tell me until he drops dead of another heart attack that waterboarding isn't torture. B.S. It damn well is and he knows it. What a sad day that George W. Bush became President of this country. The day that fool left office was a day to raise a glass of champagne in the air.
Well you sure put up compelling thoughts BUT we are not fighting a conventional war with these terrorist bozos. I still say fight fire with fire. If these guys are beating our guys to death, loping heads off for propaganda purposes, dragging them behind a truck, hanging them from bridges and lighting their bodies on fire as we have seen happen in earlier conflicts then we need to do what it takes to make them stop.
In Boston we had the 2 Marathon bombers. Sadly one survived his flight from the police so now he has his day in court and what a circus. This loser is seen on camera doing everything but lighting the fuse to the bomb and there are fools protesting at the court house for him.
America is filled with PC softies and it is getting worse.
Bush was not a great president but on 9 11 2001 the country was enraged and demanding justice. Bush did what the country wanted and in retrospect it wasn't pretty. I wonder how Obama would handle a 9-11 style attack? Would he talk and talk and then go on a vacation to Hawaii never having actually done anything?
The best thing that could happen is if there was an "accident" at Gitmo and all those terrorists and would be terrorists were killed.
America wants ot be the nice guy on the block but guess what it doesn't work anymore. I like Teddy Roosevelts motto "speak softly and carry a big stick" We need more of that. It wasn't that long ago that spies, persons that committed treason, or people that went to fight for an enemy, when caught were interogated for information then hung or shoot. If you play the game and get caught you just might lose and get whacked with a mighty big stick.
America needs ot toughen up. Our enemy is not pretty and we can't afford to play nice.
It undermines any moral authority we have when trying to persuade others.
In the long run, it seems to create more enemies.
Torture does no damage at all, if you keep it on the QT.
The problem with the Lyndie England naked twister fiasco wasn't so much the act itself, but the fact that the young hillbilly girl was stupid enough to take a picture of it on her cell phone and distribute it to her friends.
If interrogators think that radical techniques, including torture, can help loosen the tongues of terrorists and save American lives- they are the experts, I don't have standing to argue.
But if they do, they need to respect the classified nature of this kind of thing.
With the recent events in the senate concerning the torture and abuse of Gitmo detainees by the CIA once again we as a nation and individuals are facing a question "is torture worth it".
It is easy to feel empathy for the poor soul that is being tortured, maybe it is a fault of us Americans maybe it is what makes us human?
There are many reasons as the Senate panel pointed out that America is not barbaric and should not torture anyone for any reason but that is a high ideal that sadly our enemies don't care about.
There are people who say we got good information from the tortured and others who say it was useless, who knows but I say if it kept one innocent person from being harmed then it was a neccesary evil.
A friend forwarded a photo on facebook yesterday with a caption in support of torture. The photo was I believe called "the running man" it was taken the day the twin towers were attacked and it was of a man who had jumped from the tower head first to his death. A very powerful image.
Do you remember that day? The entire country was galvanised and bent on finding the people responsible for the attack by any means neccesary. Today some are questioning the means.
The debate is do you agree that torture was neccesary to help protect America?
I say if torture can save one innocent life or even a limb then do it. It is an ugly business but war is hell.
So you're saying two wrongs make a right. That America should stoop down to the level of SOME of our enemies (not even all) in the pursuit of information. No, the ends do not justify the means to me. Especially since using torture as a means of getting information is rarely effective. If our country didn't seem to revel in fighting with the rest of the world, we'd probably have a lot fewer enemies to begin with. But then we'd have no enemies to justify committing torture on would we?
First of all - I am a retired Lt Col from the AF and was a part of every major conflict since Desert Storm 1.
To all of those that say that we must use torture as it prevented some attacks. Shame on you.
The U.S. used to be a beacon of light to third world countries. It stood for freedom, opportunity, and the rule of law. We used to be able to have the upper hand with negotiations with countries that did torture their prisoners. To those that say that since they do it, we should... that makes no sense. Neutral countries before would often help in securing prisoner release from these countries and would participate more in embargo, and diplomatic pressure.
The bottom line is we stood for what was right. We upheld our treaties that we signed such as adhering to the parts of the Geneva convention we have signed and ratified. That included not torturing prisoners.
By making up BS arguments such as calling them enemy combatants, or terrorists, or whatever and then torturing them we have lost all credibility in the world.
And the use of water-boarding. The U.S. charged and convicted members of other countries of water-boarding U.S. personnel as torturing them under the accords of the Geneva Convention. So we knew it was wrong. There was precedent, and we simply had people that thought they were above the law.
So when a U.S. service member gets caught by another country now. All bets are off. We knew that we were going to be tortured even before all this stuff came out about the U.S. The thing now is these other countries can do it legally, show and brag about it on TV and be in the clear. All they have to say is that "They need the information this pilot had about future air strikes or people that we are targeting". That is the same exact argument we made.
For all of those people that think torture works. It doesn't. It is the least reliable means of getting info. You are more likely to get someone to say something... but often they will say anything to get the torture to stop, which is likely a lie.
I'm sure that given the number of people we tortured, we did occasionally get some information that helped. So what. Why don't we allow prosecutes in criminal cases to torture the accused. We would likely get some information that would help in a few cases.
The bottom line is that the policy of torturing needs to stop immediately. Those that did it need to be held accountable and disciplined accordingly.
Finally, the question has been asked to me if I were President of the U.S. and we had a nuclear or other WMD device ready to go off in a city, and the only possibility of defusing it was to torture the shutdown code out of an individual, what would I do. Personally - I would authorize the torture on the grounds that it was the only way to try to save a city. Whether or not i worked would be irrelevant. Following the action and its resolution, I would resign and turn myself in for violation of the Geneva Convention. Yes, there may be a time where a person may think (and possibly be) the only way to save millions. For me, there may be situations where that could happen. But the people doing it and authorizing it must still be held accountable for their actions.
Torture is illegal. Torture is wrong. Period. By saying it could save an innocent life you are giving everyone else in the world care Blanche to torture the hell out of anyone they want using the same argument. And they are not going to hold back like we have. The Geneva Convention works for the most point. Yes there are violations all the time, but we cannot let the excuse of well the terrorists do it so so should we. That excuse lowers us to the same moral code as some of the worst people on earth.
For those that think torture is good. Heil Hitler!!!
With the recent events in the senate concerning the torture and abuse of Gitmo detainees by the CIA once again we as a nation and individuals are facing a question "is torture worth it".
It is very easy to sit on a moral high ground and unilaterally declare that torture is barbaric, ineffective and below the enlightened society we have built around ourselves. However, to honestly answer the question whether torture is worth it, you need to consider the following scenario:
Your child/sister/mother has been kidnapped by a very disturbed sex offender. The police have managed to arrest the sicko, and recovered photographs and a journal while searching his residence. From the photos, the police know he has kidnapped your family member, and have evidence of what kinds of sick things he has subjected them to from the journal. Unfortunately, your loved one was not found during the search, but his journal indicates that has has buried them alive someplace with only a limited amount of oxygen to survive. The sicko has refused to cooperate with the police, all the while taunting them that your loved one will be his 17th and final victim.
Given this scenario, do you feel that torture would be justified to locate your loved one?
I'll be honest and say that as a hunter I have shot countless animals that didn't deserve death as much as the sicko in the example I provided. If it were me, I would use any means necessary at my disposal to make him talk. As such, I can't say that I can fault those who used torture as a means to guarantee my safety or the sovereignty of the Western World. I also believe that anyone who claims that they would let their child die in the scenario I gave above is a straight-up liar, including the alleged Lt. Col. who posted above.
It is very easy to sit on a moral high ground and unilaterally declare that torture is barbaric, ineffective and below the enlightened society we have built around ourselves. However, to honestly answer the question whether torture is worth it, you need to consider the following scenario:
Your child/sister/mother has been kidnapped by a very disturbed sex offender. The police have managed to arrest the sicko, and recovered photographs and a journal while searching his residence. From the photos, the police know he has kidnapped your family member, and have evidence of what kinds of sick things he has subjected them to from the journal. Unfortunately, your loved one was not found during the search, but his journal indicates that has has buried them alive someplace with only a limited amount of oxygen to survive. The sicko has refused to cooperate with the police, all the while taunting them that your loved one will be his 17th and final victim.
Given this scenario, do you feel that torture would be justified to locate your loved one?
I'll be honest and say that as a hunter I have shot countless animals that didn't deserve death as much as the sicko in the example I provided. If it were me, I would use any means necessary at my disposal to make him talk. As such, I can't say that I can fault those who used torture as a means to guarantee my safety or the sovereignty of the Western World. I also believe that anyone who claims that they would let their child die in the scenario I gave above is a straight-up liar, including the alleged Lt. Col. who posted above.
No, I would not say that tortured is justified.
Why?
Because the scenario falls right in line with what I have been taught by my parents. Basically,....
"The country will not be sacrificed for your ransom."
If they kidnapped me and they told my father to release secrets or I'm shredded toast, I know that ransom will not be paid. We were taught that if the parents were kidnapped and they said ransom or else, our response will be, "GO AHEAD! We've already picked the wine for the wake!".
I have been taught to believe that no one is that important.
yes it is.
it is a low form of torture but necessary
when millions of lives are at stake it is necessary
your excessive use of the letter of the law has resulted in dangerous streets my friend.
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