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It's "not a natural state of affairs" only because men have kept women in subservient legal and social positions, until relatively recently.
That's the 'natural state of affairs' part. We've spent a couple of hundred thousand years as modern humans with women in a subservient position and a couple of decades with that less true. For all I know, the current situation is temporary and will go back to the former system at some time in the future.
I suppose that you could split the issue into two halves...opportunity and rights. The second would include things like property ownership, voting, contracts, etc. The first is the tricky one. The truth is that men have a strong advantage on the margin not only in physical ability but in mental. One way to look at is that the standard curve that makes up male abilities is wider, so there are more men at the very bottom and at the very top, thus you'll always have a higher number of male geniuses and a higher number of men found in the mentally deficient cohort.
Little blast from the past for you youngsters. I started living on my own back in the 1960s in Manhattan. Nice corporate job, my own apartment all by myself.
Many a time I would finish work, didn't feel like going home and cooking, and so went out to a restaurant to eat dinner ALONE. I was denied tables because I was a FEMALE ALONE. Did they think I was a hooker on the prowl? I came from WORK dressed in work attire. I did not want a DATE just to EAT DINNER at a restaurant. Totally infuriated me. At the very least, I got very bad service, and STRANGE MEN asking me if they could join me. GET LOST. I am here because I am HUNGRY, not because I want a MAN.
Feminism? Do you want to go back to THOSE days and attitudes today? I certainly don't for myself as an old lady today, nor for my younger sisters.
Wow, that's CRAZY. And you've very eloquently demonstrated why feminism was so important, and why the women on here actually complaining about it are basically delusional. No matter whether you are a SAHM or have a hard-charging career, life as the modern-day woman knows it would not exist without feminism.
You can't complain about not having enough women in politics if the majority of women are choosing to vote for male candidates. There's nothing stopping the female gender from running for office. If women aren't choosing to run for office than that's just the way it is.
Being ridiculed and scrutinized happens all the time in politics. Both male and female politicians are scrutinized and ridiculed. If a person can't handle criticism than they shouldn't be a politician.
Yes, I will complain. There is something stopping women from running for office. We are not encouraging our girls to be leaders. So, you think we should just accept the fact women make up 51% of the population and we are only 15% in office? Sorry. I won't.
Give me a break. "Sara Palin is HOT. But, she's a ditz." That's all we heard when she was running for office.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-06-2015 at 11:16 PM..
Reason: Language
Feminism accomplished a great deal, and has improved lives for both men and women.
The opportunity to secure an education and work in any field of choice means women have the option of not having a husband and/or children and not be condemned to poverty. There isn't as much pressure to marry to have a decent standard of living. That is a good thing. It allows for marriages to be based more on love than the ability of a man to be a provider. As a die hard romantic, I appreciate that.
When I was younger, I saw feminism as a movement that empowered and inspired women to make the most of their abilities, whatever those abilities were. I saw feminism as a movement to gain respect for all of our skills and talents, not just those in traditionally female fields. I saw feminism as a movement that encouraged women to develop the capability to live independently.
In addition to being a force for equal opportunity in the workforce, I believe feminism also increased awareness of the skills developed and used in managing a household, even if they did not work outside the home.
On the whole, the movement worked to create respect for women and their abilities. For that, I am appreciative. I've known for as almost as long as I can remember that I have a pretty decent IQ, and it was very nice to be able to use it in the workforce, instead of being relegated to less challenging work. I have a husband who was attracted to me initially because of my brain, not in spite of it. I never felt like I had to play dumb to get a guy (and if I did, the guy wasn't worth having.)
However, I am often at odds with what is considered feminism today.
In my day, it meant women should strive for independence. Today, not so much. I paid for my own birth control pills, thank you very much. Back in the 80s, when I was considering applying for a certain job posting where I worked, I was insulted when someone told me "You should apply, you'll have a good chance of getting in, because they have to hire more women". I never wanted to get a job because someone had to meet a quota for women in the job, I always felt like I should earn a job just like anyone else.
To me, independence and having choices and opportunities meant you were responsible for your choices. I have no objection to single motherhood, I understand how someone might want to be a mother but for whatever reason, not be interested in marriage, but if you make that choice for yourself and your child, the responsibility is on you, IMO. Don't get pregnant if you cannot support that child without government assistance. You would think that would be common sense. Men with money/jobs seem to be able to grasp the concept of using birth control to avoid 18+ years of child support, if they are having sex with a partner they don't intend to have a permanent relationship with. I don't feel modern feminism holds women responsible for having children they can't support - it is treated as a valid life choice to be subsidized by the government.
There seems to be little room in feminism for women of faith. Religion = Patriarchy = Something that must be stamped out.
I find the feminism of today and their stridency on abortion rights extremely offputting. Women who believe life begins at conception have no place in modern feminism, or so it seems to me. Any restriction or limitation on abortion is vilified as anti-woman, even though roughly half of those fetuses are female.
I see most modern feminism as little but extreme liberalism, using the banner of equal rights to implement greater government involvement in our lives.
Feminism accomplished a great deal that was necessary and good, but it is not working for true equality today, in my opinion.
Yes, I will complain. There is something stopping women from running for office. We are not encouraging our girls to be leaders. So, you think we should just accept the fact women make up 51% of the population and we are only 15% in office? Sorry. I won't.
Give me a break. "Sara Palin is HOT. But, she's a ditz." That's all we heard when she was running for office.
People have the right to critique politicians, no matter how wrong or right they are. Moderator cut: off topic There will always be people who will criticize a politician no matter what they do. There's nothing stopping women from running into office in 2015. It's the choice of the person and who wants votes for them. Women can't play the oppressed card when it comes to political representation sense no one can tell them who they can or cannot vote for. America is not a dictatorship when it comes to the laws of voting. You can encourage people all you want but if they are choosing not do it then there is nothing you can do about that.
Are you married? Are you planning on having children? Will you take off from work when you kids get sick?
Has any MAN ever been asked those questions on a job interview? Those were the FIRST questions (not your qualifications, etc.) asked of women way back when.
Are you married? Are you planning on having children? Will you take off from work when you kids get sick?
Has any MAN ever been asked those questions on a job interview? Those were the FIRST questions (not your qualifications, etc.) asked of women way back when.
Honestly, those seem like reasonable questions. Women, at the time especially, were far more likely to deal with sick children or to take off for child rearing after you spent years training them.
In order to avoid trouble, the right answer might be to ask everyone those questions (rather than no one), but it's definitely an area where stereotyping would pay dividends.
You can argue that the fear that current US law brings to potential employers is a significant reason for offshoring business.
However, I am often at odds with what is considered feminism today.
To me, independence and having choices and opportunities meant you were responsible for your choices. I have no objection to single motherhood, I understand how someone might want to be a mother but for whatever reason, not be interested in marriage, but if you make that choice for yourself and your child, the responsibility is on you, IMO. Don't get pregnant if you cannot support that child without government assistance. You would think that would be common sense. Men with money/jobs seem to be able to grasp the concept of using birth control to avoid 18+ years of child support, if they are having sex with a partner they don't intend to have a permanent relationship with. I don't feel modern feminism holds women responsible for having children they can't support - it is treated as a valid life choice to be subsidized by the government.
I think this is a good point. I don't know if feminism is at the root of this trend. I am not sure how we went from shame, homes for unwed mothers and basically force adoption to celebration and nearly total government support for having a child out of wedlock.
If feminism is at the root of pregnancy/child based free government handouts I would consider that aspect a failure. Women have been given the means to legally prevent and end pregnancy, the means and legal support to fully support ourselves financially. Having children you can not support is just trading dependency on a husband for dependency on the government.
I think this is a good point. I don't know if feminism is at the root of this trend. I am not sure how we went from shame, homes for unwed mothers and basically force adoption to celebration and nearly total government support for having a child out of wedlock.
If feminism is at the root of pregnancy/child based free government handouts I would consider that aspect a failure. Women have been given the means to legally prevent and end pregnancy, the means and legal support to fully support ourselves financially. Having children you can not support is just trading dependency on a husband for dependency on the government.
Feminism and the sexual revolution I think played a hand in greater acceptance of unwed motherhood, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
I wouldn't return to shame or forced adoption, but private institutions providing homes and support for unwed mothers is fine by me. I'd consider a home for unwed mothers, providing a safe haven and support for a woman who chooses to give her child up for adoption, to be an example of the pro-life crowd walking the walk with regard to the welfare of the child and the mother.
Many unwed mothers live with the father and the father is involved with the support and raising of the child. There is no shame in that. Personally, I think it is best for the parents to be married, not on moral grounds, but for the legal protections should the relationship fail.
But the pendulum has swung toward insisting the taxpayers subsidize and protect the choice of having children you can't support. Feminism as I would define it would educate and empower women to NOT make choices that leave them significantly more likely to live in dependence and poverty. I think a woman has the right to sex with anyone they choose without being judged differently than men, but because an unplanned pregnancy can impact our lives so much more, women need to choose their partners wisely.
You can encourage people all you want but if they are choosing not do it then there is nothing you can do about that.
Of course there is something you can do about it. I'm a teacher. It starts with young girls and telling them they can aspire to be more than having a great rear like Kim Kardashian, (which I overheard in a 5th grade group of girls). Tell them about great women. Jane Addams, the first American woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize, Marie Curie, Golda Meir and Sandra Day O'Connor.
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