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Well I'm a woman and I can GUARANTEE you that in the 70's the "you can have it all" was nonsense. And THAT'S the topic being discussed, I believe.
Somebody forgot to tell the women that the family burden would NEVER be shared 50-50.
The EASY part was replacing the wooden ladders for the lighterweight aluminum. How do you replace the biology or the mindset of the men. And the women, for that matter.
OH and there's that little detail called pregnancy, delivery, recovery and OH ...OOOPPPS. SOMEBODY has to bond with the baby.
No problem, though. Just shuffle them off to daycare and let perfect strangers do the "bonding" (LOL) for 12 hours per day.
We won't even discuss the "gotta have two cars and BIG ones" and the huge single homes with roman tubs etc. Thereby handcuffing BOTH spouses to full time jobs, aggressive career paths and even less time for "family".
So ridiculous. Women were not SLAVES before - IT TOOK TIME AND EFFORT to run a house. My grandmother had to go to the farm, kill the chicken (or have it killed), pluck it yada yada. She couldn't whip out a Lean Cuisine or call takeout. Just drying the clothes and ironing was an all day affair.
I so agree with you.
I think that there was a time in history that we needed a change but not the way that it is today. The scale is way way off. I feel the same way about Unions. Yes, I agree that we needed it at the time but in this day not so much. imo
Alright we need to keep this in the real world and not go off into ideology. The fact of the matter is women tend to marry men who make more money then them. It's very very rare that in a new marriage the wife will make more then the husband. Men generally don't pursue women who make more then they do in there jobs. Women unless they are rich usually don't pursue men who make less then them for long term relationships and marriage. Being that men tend to earn more then women that means they are going to likely work more hours then women are. Given that most women (usually there husbands agree with them that they should) prefer to spend more time with the children as well that means the guy is going to stay working his job and maybe even working longer hours while the mother won't work as many hours if she continues to work full time and spends more time with the children. Your arguing an ideological point here while ignoring reality.
Just for clarification the post you responded to was not posted by Daisy 2010.
I disagree. SOME women marry men who make more money, some women make more money than their SO, some couples earn at the same level. Most couples I know married for the first time right out of college when their respective careers were not yet established so their income levels could be all over the place for the first few years.
(Most people don't pursue a love interest based on income anyway.) That is the world we live in today it is not ideological.
And we are back to reasons men generally out earn women, children. This does not mean that women can not have a career and children, many women do, that is reality. In healthy marriages both spouses pull their weight and decide how to split responsibilities between work and home. If a mother does cut her hours it does not mean she has to take care of everything on the home front. It is not black and white like before feminisms when man had man work and woman had woman work and ne'r the two shall meet.
Just for clarification the post you responded to was not posted by Daisy 2010.
I disagree. SOME women marry men who make more money, some women make more money than their SO, some couples earn at the same level. Most couples I know married for the first time right out of college when their respective careers were not yet established so their income levels could be all over the place for the first few years.
It's rare that happens though. I didn't say it doesn't happen ever what I'm saying is that it is very rare for it to happen especially going into a new marriage. The college graduate scenario is
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Originally Posted by 2mares
(Most people don't pursue a love interest based on income anyway.) That is the world we live in today it is not ideological.
My response to this is if your a guy and go to any online dating site and trying asking women out there and if you make 30k less then the woman does the woman is going to very likely ignore. You might be able to get a friends with benefits relationship but LTR let alone marriage you can forget about that.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
And we are back to reasons men generally out earn women, children.
Big reason? Yes. Most likely the main reason? Probably. The only reason? No. A couple of pages ago we went through some high paying jobs that you can make 100k or more a year at which don't require years of college and what you find is these jobs is that they are heavily dominated by men. It's not due to discrimination it's really due to lack of interest from women in those type of jobs.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
This does not mean that women can not have a career and children, many women do, that is reality.
Can they have them both at the same time though? If the answer is yes then the question is do they actually want to have both at the same time?
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Originally Posted by 2mares
In healthy marriages both spouses pull their weight and decide how to split responsibilities between work and home.
In a lot of healthy relationships the guy makes more and works longer hours while the wife works less and is home more with the children. Most things in life aren't 50-50.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
If a mother does cut her hours it does not mean she has to take care of everything on the home front.
I'm not going to say everything but she is going to do more on the home front though. It's a trade off you work less and have more time with the kids but you will do more on the home front.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
It is not black and white like before feminisms when man had man work and woman had woman work and ne'r the two shall meet.
Honestly in a lot professions it's still like before feminism came about. How many male nurses do you see running around compared to female nurses? How many women do you see running around in high paying blue collar professions compared to men? The answer to both is not much of anything has changed so it still is black and white for the most part in a lot of professions.
Do you have stats to back this up? My niece makes much more than her husband, and my nephew's wife makes more than he does. My best friend makes more than her husband, and I made more than the incomes of my last 2 boyfriend's incomes combined. It's obviously not "very, very rare".
It's roughly 30% of marriages the numbers are similar in both the United States and UK. A lot of that is due to the great recession with many men losing jobs and when they do get new jobs making less then what they previously did and those are all marriages not just new marriages. I will stand by what I have stated on this thread that if you make 30k or less then a woman does a year she generally will ignore you for LTR. Men rarely pursue women for LTR if they make a lot more money then they do as well which explains a lot of this.
It's rare that happens though. I didn't say it doesn't happen ever what I'm saying is that it is very rare for it to happen especially going into a new marriage. The college graduate scenario is
It is not rare. Many women earn more than their husbands, many couples early relatively equal salaries. Often jobs and salaries fluctuate over the years of a marriage. This flexibility is thanks to feminism.
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My response to this is if your a guy and go to any online dating site and trying asking women out there and if you make 30k less then the woman does the woman is going to very likely ignore. You might be able to get a friends with benefits relationship but LTR let alone marriage you can forget about that.
Yet there are hundreds of marriages everyday in which a guy is making less than 30K.
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Big reason? Yes. Most likely the main reason? Probably. The only reason?
No. A couple of pages ago we went through some high paying jobs that you can
make 100k or more a year at which don't require years of college and what you
find is these jobs is that they are heavily dominated by men. It's not due to
discrimination it's really due to lack of interest from women in those type of
jobs.
I never claimed it was the only reason. The reason that husbands out earn wives in married couples with children is due to the mother often cutting back hours to care for children. This does not mean mothers can not be mothers and work.
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Can they have them both at the same time though? If the answer is yes then the question is do they actually want to have both at the same time?
Yes. Definitely. If they want to do both at the same time. Some do other women drop out of the workforce for a while or go part time. Again feminism made this possible. Even single mothers have careers, yes because they want to.
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In a lot of healthy relationships the guy makes more and works longer hours while the wife works less and is home more with the children. Most things in life aren't 50-50.
Again, feminism making it possible to accommodate different life styles. My point exactly that it doesn't have to be either a SAHM or working mother who has to do it all at home too. She can have both a career and be a mother.
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I'm not going to say everything but she is going to do more on the home front though. It's a trade off you work less and have more time with the kids but you will do more on the home front.
Moderator cut: Against Great Debates guidelines Of course the one home more is going to pull more weight at home.
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Honestly in a lot professions it's still like before feminism came about. How
many male nurses do you see running around compared to female nurses? How many
women do you see running around in high paying blue collar professions compared
to men? The answer to both is not much of anything has changed so it still is
black and white for the most part in a lot of professions.
I don't count but before it would be like zero. Women are allowed and encouraged to go after blue collar professions. You don't seem to understand its not the quantity but the quality. It doesn't matter what the percentages are the importance is that it is.
It is not rare. Many women earn more than their husbands, many couples early relatively equal salaries. Often jobs and salaries fluctuate over the years of a marriage. This flexibility is thanks to feminism.
Your talking a long term marriage where I was focusing on new marriages.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
Yet there are hundreds of marriages everyday in which a guy is making less than 30K.
Honestly how many of those marriages is the wife really making 60k or more a year? Most of the time in marriages where a guy only makes 30k a year the wife makes either less, about the same or slightly more.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
I never claimed it was the only reason. The reason that husbands out earn wives in married couples with children is due to the mother often cutting back hours to care for children. This does not mean mothers can not be mothers and work.
Not saying that women can't be mothers and work. All I'm saying is a lot of the wage gap isn't due to discrimination but different career choices (ie men dominating STEM fields and high paying blue collar jobs) and raising children since women are the ones in relationships that spend more time with the children and it's because they want to the majority of the time and usually involves the husband working more to make up for the wife working less in regards to keeping there combined income up.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
Yes. Definitely. If they want to do both at the same time. Some do other women drop out of the workforce for a while or go part time. Again feminism made this possible. Even single mothers have careers, yes because they want to.
I'm not being rude when I say this but what was so different in the 1950s that prevented a woman say being a nurse or teacher while being a mother? I'm not seeing how feminism made that possible to blunt. The Women's suffrage movement which was a different event that made a lot this possible not feminism which came about in the 1960s.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
Again, feminism making it possible to accommodate different life styles. My point exactly that it doesn't have to be either a SAHM or working mother who has to do it all at home too. She can have both a career and be a mother.
To an extent if we are being honest. If your career involves you working 70 hours or more a week and you have a young child unless your husband works little or is a stay at home dad (rare) or you can afford to have a nanny be with your child when you aren't home the answer seems to be not really. Later in life kids are grown or at least older teenagers then yeah you can have the 70 hour career if you want to pursue that since you don't have to worry about the kids. So my honest answer to this would be you can have both but not at the same time.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
Well duh. Of course the one home more is going to pull more weight at home.
Had to be clarified since you were going on about splitting things up equally.
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Originally Posted by 2mares
I don't count but before it would be like zero. Women are allowed and encouraged to go after blue collar professions. You don't seem to understand its not the quantity but the quality.
It doesn't matter what the percentages are the importance is that it is.
This might hold weight if we were talking generally laborer in a warehouse but the topic of high paying blue collar jobs was talking about jobs where you can make a six figure salary. You don't see women generally pursuing those type of jobs regardless if they have children or not or if their children or grown up or not.
Your talking a long term marriage where I was focusing on new marriages.
Most often in new marriages women can be making more. Most first marriages occur when a couple is just beginning their careers or are in their first real job. Jobs change, salaries fluctuate, careers advance. It is usually as the marriage goes on the men begin to out earn women.
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Honestly how many of those marriages is the wife really making 60k or more a year? Most of the time in marriages where a guy only makes 30k a year the wife makes either less, about the same or slightly more.
What differences does it make. Your argument was that women will ignore you if you make less than 30K. Plenty of men marry making 30K or less.
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Not saying that women can't be mothers and work. All I'm saying is a lot of the wage gap isn't due to discrimination but different career choices (ie men dominating STEM fields and high paying blue collar jobs) and raising children since women are the ones in relationships that spend more time with the children and it's because they want to the majority of the time and usually involves the husband working more to make up for the wife working less in regards to keeping there combined income up.
I agree the majority of men and women make different career choices and most women are the ones that want to sacrifice career for children. I don't agree that husbands end up working more hours, they just take a income hit. At the same time, especially if her income is lower money is saved in daycare and domestic expenses. I don't see how this makes feminism a failure. It still allows for choices.
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I'm not being rude when I say this but what was so different in the 1950s that prevented a woman say being a nurse or teacher while being a mother? I'm not seeing how feminism made that possible to blunt. The Women's suffrage movement which was a different event that made a lot this possible not feminism which came about in the 1960s.
It made it possible to be something more than nurse or mother (what if men had but 2 or 3 career choices). The suffrage movement is feminism. The suffrage movement was focused more on laws, right to vote, labor laws. In the 1050's sex decimation bills had not even passed. By the 60's, feminism was concentrated on attitudes (which affected those law that had been put in place). The mid 60's saw the influx of married women with children into the labor force where it had previously been young single women. If you care to do some reading you will see a huge difference in attitudes and job opportunities for married mothers between 1950 and today.
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To an extent if we are being honest. If your career involves you working 70 hours or more a week and you have a young child unless your husband works little or is a stay at home dad (rare) or you can afford to have a nanny be with your child when you aren't home the answer seems to be not really. Later in life kids are grown or at least older teenagers then yeah you can have the 70 hour career if you want to pursue that since you don't have to worry about the kids. So my honest answer to this would be you can have both but not at the same time.
The average person does not work 70 hrs. a week. Today 32 hours is considered full time. So yes the average worker 40-50 hrs. a week can have both a job and family.
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Had to be clarified since you were going on about splitting things up equally.
I don't think pull your weight implies everything be 50/50. I still think you are missing the point. Because women aren't the majority in STEM fields or the fact women generally earn less and spend more time with their children does not make feminism a failure. The fact the women can enter STEM fields, can earn a decent living, can work and be a wife and mother make feminism a great for women, men and children.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-02-2015 at 08:01 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting. See DM
Yeah, there are other reasons it is not an unqualified success as well. Woman are burdened with the idea that every difference between men and women has to be some sort of patriarchal conspiracy.
They have to be constantly confronted with the fact that men make more money for doing the same job as if it were something unnatural when the truth is that men OVERWHELMINGLY work more overtime, thus getting better results and raises. The almost certainly natural gap between men and women in terms of math and science has to be presented as some kind of function of male domination.
But there is not doubt that it has helped women who want access to a career. Everything has its yin and yang.
"Almost certainly" isn't good enough. In countries that do a better job at teaching math, there is no such gap. In my generation of the family, everyone struggled with HS math. I ended up doing the best, even though in spite of hard work, I only got a C in algebra. My brothers did worse than that. My niece aced all her math classes, and was a math tutor to some of the boys and girls in her classes, in both HS and college.
One of my wives friends summed it up pretty well
It used to be women were barefoot, in the kitchen cooking, cleaning, having kids, raising kids
NOW, they are barefoot, in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, having kids, raising kids, and with full time careers...be careful what you wish for
For me the problem isn't feminism, its both parents working AND running a household...these days its very hard to have a nice life for your family on one income...
I do see women as equals...mostly...I will never do cartwheels over them being in combat, however
but the idea that at one point women weren't allowed to vote is just ridiculous...
I DO know a few stay at home dads, who are laid off or whatever, and their wives resent the crap out of them...they get to spend a lot more time with their kids while the wives have to deal with the corporate nightmare of careers...both these girls blew their "empowerment" horns very loud back in the day...I wonder what they think of all that now...I know they are miserable
One of my wives friends summed it up pretty well
It used to be women were barefoot, in the kitchen cooking, cleaning, having kids, raising kids
NOW, they are barefoot, in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, having kids, raising kids, and with full time careers...be careful what you wish for
For me the problem isn't feminism, its both parents working AND running a household...these days its very hard to have a nice life for your family on one income...
I do see women as equals...mostly...I will never do cartwheels over them being in combat, however
but the idea that at one point women weren't allowed to vote is just ridiculous...
I DO know a few stay at home dads, who are laid off or whatever, and their wives resent the crap out of them...they get to spend a lot more time with their kids while the wives have to deal with the corporate nightmare of careers...both these girls blew their "empowerment" horns very loud back in the day...I wonder what they think of all that now...I know they are miserable
I think the bolded above is so true. I also believe that this issue maybe the side effect of feminism. The feminist say you have a choice but in reality you really don't. What of the single mothers? Do they have a choice to stay home or work? I don't think so. If anything, feminism have made it easier on men and harder on women. Yes, the women have to take care of the home plus work outside of the home. imo
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