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This is nothing more than a reworded argument to allow discrimination.
The so called "free market" can not always correct for small minorities.
Just think for a moment if the only cell carrier or only internet provider or only Cable company that services your area was allowed to not sell to heterosexual couples. That is how the LBGT community feels about many things that everyone can take for granted.
One of the best things about our government is that we have and are continually growing towards free treatment of all people and denying people the right to discriminate against people because of their sex, race, color, national origin and hopefully soon sexual orientation.
Sure they can. Just do it really badly. "Uh oh, the penis turned out looking like the Eiffel Tower...my bad". You can't impose good art on someone legally. Or just say "I don't do body parts". Nobody is going to sue you for it. None of that stuff is legally protected.
Currently a cake baker can not refuse to decorate a cake with something he finds immoral ( figures of same sex couples)
What if a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with a big artificial penis protruding from the cake?
What if a carpenter building a chest gets a request for a bunch of pornographic figures carved into it?
Must a business man be obligated to perform extra services on his product that he deems are morally offensive ?
A baker CAN refuse to decorate a cake with something he/she finds immoral without discriminating against anyone by simply refusing the same thing they find immoral for every customer. That means if he/she finds it immoral to put figures of same sex couples on top of their wedding cakes and don't want to be forced to do so, all they have to do is stop offering figures of couples on any of their cakes and problem solved without discriminating against anyone. The same can be done for the other examples you give. As long as a baker refuses to decorate a cake with a big artificial penis protruding from the cake for EVERY customer that comes in and asks for it to be done, he/she isn't discriminating against anyone. As long as a carpenter refuses to carve pornographic figures into every chest he/she makes for EVERY customer that comes in and asks for it to be done, then he/she isn't discriminating against anyone. As long as a business person refuses to perform extra services on his/her products that he/she deems are morally offensive for EVERY customer that comes in and asks it of him/her, he/she isn't discriminating against anyone. You either offer the product or service to everyone who asks for it or you offer it to no one. That way you protect your religious beliefs while at the same time you avoid discriminating. It's really quite simple and I don't understand why so many people don't understand that. People can protect their religious beliefs while also not discriminating against anyone. In a situation where you might argue that you are only performing one service (lets say baking wedding cakes) so there is no way you can offer cakes to everyone and still protect your religious rights because you either have to discriminate against gay people by denying wedding cakes to them because same sex marriage is against your religion or you lose your religious rights by being forced to offer your cakes to everyone. There is a way around that problem too that would protect your religious rights while also not cause you to discriminate against anyone. You simply refuse your service to everyone who is committing any of the acts that your religion considers a sin, which if you care about your religion enough to refuse goods/services to a sinner then you should already be doing instead of only picking one random sin to single out for exclusion.
I could support a religious person refusing goods/services to people based on their religious beliefs if they did so for everyone who was sinning against their religion not just one type of sinner out of them all. That means if you are Catholic and you do not want to provide goods or services to gay people because being gay, having gay sex, or having a gay marriage is against your religion, then you should also not want to provide goods/services for every person who is divorced, who has killed someone, having premarital sex, using the birth control pill, committing adultery, who has stolen something, lied, coveted someone's spouse, used the Lords name in vain, not kept the Sabbath day holy, etc. for the same reason. I was born and raised Catholic. There is no place in the bible that I am aware of that says being gay is a worse sin than all of the rest and that those sinners should be singled out over the rest. Or if you're a different religion than a Catholic, everyone who is or has committed any of the acts your religion considers a sin you should not provide goods or services to.
Last edited by searching4info; 04-01-2015 at 11:03 AM..
This is nothing more than a reworded argument to allow discrimination.
The so called "free market" can not always correct for small minorities.
Just think for a moment if the only cell carrier or only internet provider or only Cable company that services your area was allowed to not sell to heterosexual couples. That is how the LBGT community feels about many things that everyone can take for granted.
One of the best things about our government is that we have and are continually growing towards free treatment of all people and denying people the right to discriminate against people because of their sex, race, color, national origin and hopefully soon sexual orientation.
your example is a poor one...I do not think in one of these cases that I have seen there has been a situation in which the business that is denying service is doing so when it is the only one in the area.
and also in your example the biggest thing that stands out to me is a great business opportunity.
This is why the government needs to butt out of business. A business should be free to conduct itself any way it wants, and suffer the consequences of its actions. Even smaller issues, like whether or not to allow smoking in one's establishment should be the decision of the business owner. If I hate second hand smoke, I won't work there or dine there.
Remember the hubbub about Hobby Lobby and the ruling that they cannot be forced to pay for abortion medication? This was because they are a closely held company which is seen by the Constitution in the same way as an individual. Most small companies would fall into the same category, I think.
Let's say I'm a bakery owner who hates everybody...blacks, Muslims, kids, gays, Jews and life in general. I will not make you a cake unless I feel like it, and if I don't like the looks of you I won't. How long will he stay in business? The problem will take care of itself.
I could support a religious person refusing goods/services to people based on their religious beliefs if they did so for everyone who was sinning against their religion not just one type of sinner out of them all. That means if you are Catholic and you do not want to provide goods or services to gay people because being gay, having gay sex, or having a gay marriage is against your religion, then you should also not want to provide goods/services for every person who is divorced, who has killed someone, having premarital sex, using the birth control pill, committing adultery, who has stolen something, lied, coveted someone's spouse, used the Lords name in vain, not kept the Sabbath day holy, etc. for the same reason. I was born and raised Catholic. There is no place in the bible that I am aware of that says being gay is a worse sin than all of the rest and that those sinners should be singled out over the rest. Or if you're a different religion than a Catholic, everyone who is or has committed any of the acts your religion considers a sin you should not provide goods or services to.
Considering most Christians acknowledge we are all sinners, you effectively put all devout Christians out of business.
Sounds like some people think that's just fine and dandy.
I might point out though that we don't know these people don't apply similar standards to other "sinners". It's entirely possible that someone of strong conviction might decline to provide a cake for a baby shower for an unwed mother. However, odds are that never hits the presses.
However, to make clear what these supposed Christians are really asking for is the ability to refuse services for a particular ceremony, not to an entire group of people. If you're not asking these people to cater a same sex marriage, they're not refusing you service.
People love to leap onto the slippery slope, saying that will happen soon enough.
Okay then, on the other side of the slope is pastors, priests, ministers being forced to perform services they don't believe in.... Is anyone going to seriously argue this is a good thing?
Currently a cake baker can not refuse to decorate a cake with something he finds immoral ( figures of same sex couples)
What if a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with a big artificial penis protruding from the cake?
What if a carpenter building a chest gets a request for a bunch of pornographic figures carved into it?
Must a business man be obligated to perform extra services on his product that he deems are morally offensive ?
Nice red herring.
Here's an actually relevant circumstance for you. Suppose your daughter/wife/sister is driving alone at night in a remote area. She is almost out of gas. She pulls into a gas station. The owner is a devout conservative Muslim who believes she is being immoral by being out unaccompanied with her head uncovered and that he would be drawn into immorality by interacting with her. He refuses to serve her, exercising his legal right to deny service in order to follow his religion as he sees it.
She can stay at the gas station and wait for someone to come and get her or she can try her luck continuing her drive through a remote area at night, risking running out of gas before she finds a gas station that will serve her.
Implausible? Perhaps. But not as implausible as someone wanting a giant penis cake. (Though honestly, that would be more likely for a bachelorette party than a gay marriage.)
Here's an actually relevant circumstance for you. Suppose your daughter/wife/sister is driving alone at night in a remote area. She is almost out of gas. She pulls into a gas station. The owner is a devout conservative Muslim who believes she is being immoral by being out unaccompanied with her head uncovered and that he would be drawn into immorality by interacting with her. He refuses to serve her, exercising his legal right to deny service in order to follow his religion as he sees it.
She can stay at the gas station and wait for someone to come and get her or she can try her luck continuing her drive through a remote area at night, risking running out of gas before she finds a gas station that will serve her.
Implausible? Perhaps. But not as implausible as someone wanting a giant penis cake. (Though honestly, that would be more likely for a bachelorette party than a gay marriage.)
As long as were doing discriminating Muslim hypotheticals, here's a fun one.
A blind man goes out for some drinks on New Years, and being responsible, he arranges a cab in advance. When the cab comes, the Muslim cab owner refuses to let the blind man in the cab because of his seeing eye dog. Blind man is now stranded late at night unable to get another cab because it's New Years.
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