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Currently a cake baker can not refuse to decorate a cake with something he finds immoral ( figures of same sex couples)
What if a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with a big artificial penis protruding from the cake?
What if a carpenter building a chest gets a request for a bunch of pornographic figures carved into it?
Must a business man be obligated to perform extra services on his product that he deems are morally offensive ?
Oy people! These slippery slope arguments are getting tedious.
I already went into this in length in another thread in the CE forum, but I will repeat what I said there here (hopefully I'm not stopping on anyone else's response since I only just read the OP):
Anyone, at least anyone w/ any sort of business smarts, in the business of performing a specific service for a client can and should dictate their parameters. I'm an artist and am friends w/ a ton of artists, along w/ bakers, builders, and other creators. Part of whatever contract of agreement you go into w/ a client is-or should be- an explanation of what you will or will not do.
The majority of bakers I've ever known (and I've personally seen 5 bakeries start up from scratch) had rules stating the sort of cakes they wouldn't decorate. A couple have strict "no obscene/racist/abusive language or images" policy. These people would politely decline any request to make a penis cake, regardless of who made it.
On the other hand, one baker I know specializes in risque cakes and pastries and wouldn't hesitate to make a penis cake and has (mostly for bachelorette parties, BTW). She would also create cakes w/ swear words but draws a line at racist/abusive language (no cakes w/ the N-word, swastikas, etc).
Some photographers I know refuse to do anything in the realm of nude or near-nude/risque photos, even if asked (and they have been asked!). And some I know make a living photographing doing just that.
As an artist or business owner, YOU CAN dictate the limits of your service. HOWEVER, there is a massive difference from not creating a certain item vs. outright refusal of service and/or wholesale discrimination against a customer. If someone came in asking for a penis cake or other morally offensive product, a business owner can simply say "we don't do those things here" and offer another suggestion. But if you provide cakes to one type of customers, you must provide the same item to another type of customer as well.
The issues arising here is that these business owners think that not liking the idea of gay marriage is an excuse for outright discrimination against people. If a straight couple comes in for 12 dozen white roses for their wedding and a gay couple comes in for 12 dozen white roses for their wedding, under what argument, BESIDES religion, can you deny one party's request over another? Now, if one of those couple came in asking for 12 dozen white roses soaked in the blood of freshly killed puppies, sure, deny that request based on moral objections.
In the end, if you have a business that is opened to the public at large, you should serve the public at large. That's it.
Heard an interesting perspective that the discrimination is against an event not a person in the example of the baker due to his religious beliefs.
If the Baker refused for to sell cupcakes to an obviously gay couple who walked into the shop to buy cupcakes, then that would be obvious discrimination.
However, a cake for a wedding demands participation.
Could a vegan photographer who's a member of Peta refuse to shoot pictures of Lady Gaga wearing her "meat dress"?
What sort of participation would be needed from a baker or florist? If a gay couple just wants to pick up a cake or flowers, how is that participating? Is the electric company supplying electricity to the venue participating in the event? The ring designer? Is David Bridal's now a main participant in someone's wedding?
As for the meat dress example, unless you're a photographer who has explicitly state what sort of shoots you will or will not do (see my earlier post), then you just need to suck it up, Buttercup, and do your job. Chances are, if you made it known upfront, no one would have hired you in the first place (and, frankly, your chances of getting hired at all are slim since such parameters would make working w/ someone like that difficult). Funny enough, I know a vegan photographer and she has no issues w/ handling meat, photographing it or other animal products like leather. She's even gone to dinner parties whee meat was served. I guess she realizes that your personal morals can't be forced upon others.
I could support a religious person refusing goods/services to people based on their religious beliefs if they did so for everyone who was sinning against their religion not just one type of sinner out of them all. That means if you are Catholic and you do not want to provide goods or services to gay people because being gay, having gay sex, or having a gay marriage is against your religion, then you should also not want to provide goods/services for every person who is divorced, who has killed someone, having premarital sex, using the birth control pill, committing adultery, who has stolen something, lied, coveted someone's spouse, used the Lords name in vain, not kept the Sabbath day holy, etc. for the same reason. I was born and raised Catholic. There is no place in the bible that I am aware of that says being gay is a worse sin than all of the rest and that those sinners should be singled out over the rest. Or if you're a different religion than a Catholic, everyone who is or has committed any of the acts your religion considers a sin you should not provide goods or services to.
Repped and quoted for truth. Frankly, I'm SICK AND TIRED of "cafeteria Christians" who go down the line and pick and choose the parts of the Bible and their own religion to follow. Some of these Christians so against serving LBGT customers continue to serve murderers, thieves, whores, people having premarital sex, adulterers, etc. It always gave me a chuckle to see young men and women stumbling into church on Sunday morning after spending Saturday night clubbing, grinding, doing drugs, binge drinking, and having sex! You could always pick them out from the crowd!
Heard an interesting perspective that the discrimination is against an event not a person in the example of the baker due to his religious beliefs.
If the Baker refused for to sell cupcakes to an obviously gay couple who walked into the shop to buy cupcakes, then that would be obvious discrimination.
However, a cake for a wedding demands participation.
Errant nonsense. No one is inviting the baker to the wedding! It is discrimination against people. The baker is not participating in the wedding - he or she is only baking a cake and getting paid for it.
If you want to look at it that way, NO interaction is "with a person", they are ALL events. The events being anything from dinner to a birthday part to a wedding.
So by your lights, a Mormon baker can refuse to sell cupcakes to people who drink alcohol, because then they would be "participating" in the party where those cupcakes are going to be consumed - along with alcoholic beverages.
Well, that's an interesting one. Would a "religious freedom" law override laws about service animals? Hmmmm.
And wouldn't someone who is part of the "Christian Identity" movement be able to argue that they have the right to only serve whites, as that is part of their version of Christianity?
If you open a business serving the public, you basically should be required to provide the same level of service to every person who deals with you respectfully, has reasonable expectations (as in, doesn't expect a giant penis cake, which could reflect poorly on the business providing it) and can pay the price for your services. Anything less and we risk sliding down a very slippery slope with regard to civil rights.
People always forget that side of the coin, eh? What's to stop people of other religions from discriminating against YOU? There have already been issues of Muslim cabdrivers not picking up passengers w/ dogs, even service dogs, or people carrying alcohol. If the IN law had stood in place, would they have been allowed to continue to do so? And what about other religions where ritual animal sacrifice or drug use is common? IIRC, in some religions, talking w/ unknown women or even being near a menstruating women is a no-no. Yes, it does become a slippery slope indeed.
Folks, we live in a word where Scientology is a recognized religion (at least here it is), who is to say that some bigot or insane person couldn't create their own religion or off shoot of Christianity w/ some troubling traditions that would be protected under silly laws like this.
Thats not the same thing. Suppose the bookstore didn't sell the chemistry books at all (meaning to any customer) but then now are being forced to sell them because the customers demand it. That's whats going on here. A person may not bake gay themed wedding cakes, but some want the government to force them to add gay-themed cakes to their inventory.
Now I don't think that they should be allowed to discriminate on WHO they sell to but they should have control over WHAT they sell.
Pray tell, what is a "gay themed cake"? Seriously, cakes for gay weddings are very rarely any different from cakes for hetero weddings. Many times there is ZERO difference (cake toppers in the shape of two people aren't always used and, if they are, may be bought and customized from another location and added on to the cake later). Some of you people seem to have this idea in mind that the LGBT community is only ordering penis shaped cake & confectioneries, rainbow colored tidbits, leather chaps, and other stereotypical "gay" items.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-04-2015 at 08:44 AM..
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Location: When you take flak it means you are on target
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OK, let's try this. What if I call up and order a three tier wedding cake with white icing and I tell the baker that is all I want, a three tier wedding cake and I want it delivered to my house or I'll pick it up, wherever. I don't ask for little people statues, no names, nothing, just maybe a couple of wedding bells in icing.
Not asking them to come and cut the cake at the wedding, just bake a cake. Are they going to require a background and social register check for all their customers just in case a gay slips in over the phone.
What business is it of the baker if I just like wedding cake and want to eat the whole thing myself? What if I don't tell them if I am gay, straight, or black. What if AFTER they deliver the cake I then tell them I'm gay, or black muslim and I'm going to eat my cake at my wedding? What if I'm a gay black muslim? Will they come and repossess my cake? Sue me for fraud?
This shows the total failure of their religious freedom arguement. Religious freedom means the freedom to worship free of government interferrence. It does NOT mean the freedom to discriminate or refuse service to sections of the public.
Currently a cake baker can not refuse to decorate a cake with something he finds immoral ( figures of same sex couples)
What if a customer comes in and wants a cake decorated with a big artificial penis protruding from the cake?
What if a carpenter building a chest gets a request for a bunch of pornographic figures carved into it?
Must a business man be obligated to perform extra services on his product that he deems are morally offensive ?
The solution seems to be "do unto all." You don't want to be in a position to write things on cakes that go against your beliefs? Then don't write anything on your cakes for anyone.
Carpenters usually aren't "wood carvers." But who knows? Maybe they all secretly have the skills and just abstain lest they be put in such a position.
It seems as though EOH is expanding into the business world. A few decades behind the time considering that property owners have been having to rent to people for years who possibly had beliefs against their own. Property owners have had to rent to ( ie serve) hetero couples cohabitating before marriage, gay couples, etc even though it may be against their religious beliefs. For many property owners, real estate renting is their "business."
Now it is time for all other businesses to finally catch up.
It could be quickly (and justifiably) curbed if, whenever the business owner delegates a service of a personal nature to a subordinate, a portion of that charge is paid directly to the subordinate charged with that task. (and as an aside, the subordinate's personal views might not have to be fully in synch with those of his/her (micro-)manager.
The "oldest profession" has a particularly-demeaning four-letter term for "supervisors" in that field. and as far as I'm concerned -- a likeness to that role is becoming increasingly apparent in our over-sensitized, service-oriented, and increasingly unrealistic economy.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 04-04-2015 at 11:01 AM..
OK, let's try this. What if I call up and order a three tier wedding cake with white icing and I tell the baker that is all I want, a three tier wedding cake and I want it delivered to my house or I'll pick it up, wherever. I don't ask for little people statues, no names, nothing, just maybe a couple of wedding bells in icing.
Not asking them to come and cut the cake at the wedding, just bake a cake. Are they going to require a background and social register check for all their customers just in case a gay slips in over the phone.
What business is it of the baker if I just like wedding cake and want to eat the whole thing myself? What if I don't tell them if I am gay, straight, or black. What if AFTER they deliver the cake I then tell them I'm gay, or black muslim and I'm going to eat my cake at my wedding? What if I'm a gay black muslim? Will they come and repossess my cake? Sue me for fraud?
This shows the total failure of their religious freedom arguement. Religious freedom means the freedom to worship free of government interferrence. It does NOT mean the freedom to discriminate or refuse service to sections of the public.
Exactly. And besides, what right does the baker have to say, "Your morals don't measure up to my/my God's standards?" or "Because I think you are going to burn in the Lake of Fire, I'm not making the cake for you." I'm curious to know if this Baronelle person has ever lied, cheated, stolen, gotten divorced, committed adultery, slapped someone, or even slept with another woman in her younger years Isn't God supposed to be loving and forgiving? And what of her accepting his money on all those previous occasions, knowing he was gay, and not now? I'm not understanding her hypocrisy.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-04-2015 at 10:29 PM..
Reason: Removed icon
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