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I find it interesting that people think that religion means nothing and should have no boundaries on business decisions. Some of you folks must understand that for very religious people, their religion/beliefs impact every aspect of their lives. For example, if they were told by their boss to lie to a customer, religious people like me would refuse to do it. I also would not work for a criminal enterprise, even if the work I was doing was just accounting.
HOwever, I will say, that I don't understand these folks refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding. Its the same as if a Christian made a wedding cake for a couple what was living together before they got married. Or lets say you owned a motel. You can't make a religious argument that you don't want to rent a room to the gay couple, but its OK for the unmarried heterosexual couple. They are both involved in sin against the 6th commandment.
So I'm seeing this "but why do they bake cakes for adulterers, fornicators, blah blah but won't bake a cake for a gay wedding?" argument ad nauseaum.
For people of no faith who purport to be Bible scholars, they appear to have missed the concept of repentance and forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus hung out with prostitutes. To my knowledge, He did not do so while they were in the act of prostitution. There are Christians today who attempt to bring sinners into their church by going into the territory of the sinner. The intent is to end the sin, not perpetuate it. Merely being in the company of sinners is not a sin. The Bible teaches we are all sinners, and the New Testament teaches that we are all forgiven by God as long as we repent and accept Jesus.
So why would a Christian baker provide a cake for the wedding of fornicators who lived together before marriage, or even fornicated with other people before? Quite possibly because no matter what the sins of the past, there is the feeling they have repented and been forgiven and are proceeding to go forth and sin no more, by getting married. Any sex they have after the wedding is permitted by their religion.
To the contrary, a same sex marriage is more or less a guarantee the homosexual behavior considered sinful will not stop, and there is zero repentance for the perceived sin.
With regard to other acts of sin, the butcher baker candlestick maker may have no idea whether the person has any repentance, but they feel they are not implicitly condoning a celebration of continuing to sin.
Keep in mind, I am trying to approach this as a fundamentalist Christian, which I am not. But I can understand their reasoning in not wanting to provide services for a same sex marriage, even if I do not agree with it. It would be nice if others could attempt to do the same.
Of course, it's entirely possible the non-believers parroting select Bible verses about various other sins are doing so completely disingenuously, solely to mock people of faith, and completely understand the line of reasoning I laid out, but it doesn't fit their agenda.
I find it interesting that people think that religion means nothing and should have no boundaries on business decisions. Some of you folks must understand that for very religious people, their religion/beliefs impact every aspect of their lives. For example, if they were told by their boss to lie to a customer, religious people like me would refuse to do it. I also would not work for a criminal enterprise, even if the work I was doing was just accounting.
HOwever, I will say, that I don't understand these folks refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding. Its the same as if a Christian made a wedding cake for a couple what was living together before they got married. Or lets say you owned a motel. You can't make a religious argument that you don't want to rent a room to the gay couple, but its OK for the unmarried heterosexual couple. They are both involved in sin against the 6th commandment.
The problem is that some so called Christians hide behind their God to discriminate against gay people. CNN did an interview with a florist who said she would not make flowers for a gay wedding but when asked she will make them for adulterers, so she chooses who to discriminate against.
I would not lie to a customer because I have integrity, I would not do something criminal at work because I don't want to go to jail.
These people are just bigots and they hate others that are not like them and use God to discriminate.
So I'm seeing this "but why do they bake cakes for adulterers, fornicators, blah blah but won't bake a cake for a gay wedding?" argument ad nauseaum.
For people of no faith who purport to be Bible scholars, they appear to have missed the concept of repentance and forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus hung out with prostitutes. To my knowledge, He did not do so while they were in the act of prostitution. There are Christians today who attempt to bring sinners into their church by going into the territory of the sinner. The intent is to end the sin, not perpetuate it. Merely being in the company of sinners is not a sin. The Bible teaches we are all sinners, and the New Testament teaches that we are all forgiven by God as long as we repent and accept Jesus.
So why would a Christian baker provide a cake for the wedding of fornicators who lived together before marriage, or even fornicated with other people before? Quite possibly because no matter what the sins of the past, there is the feeling they have repented and been forgiven and are proceeding to go forth and sin no more, by getting married. Any sex they have after the wedding is permitted by their religion.
To the contrary, a same sex marriage is more or less a guarantee the homosexual behavior considered sinful will not stop, and there is zero repentance for the perceived sin.
With regard to other acts of sin, the butcher baker candlestick maker may have no idea whether the person has any repentance, but they feel they are not implicitly condoning a celebration of continuing to sin.
Keep in mind, I am trying to approach this as a fundamentalist Christian, which I am not. But I can understand their reasoning in not wanting to provide services for a same sex marriage, even if I do not agree with it. It would be nice if others could attempt to do the same.
Of course, it's entirely possible the non-believers parroting select Bible verses about various other sins are doing so completely disingenuously, solely to mock people of faith, and completely understand the line of reasoning I laid out, but it doesn't fit their agenda.
Sin is sin
commandments are commandment, YOu don't get to pick and choose to follow the ones you like.
hypocrites are hypocrites
bigot are bigots
I'm always shocked to hear these arguments that "The free market will fix it".
Did the "Free Market" end slavery? Did the "Free Market" enforce the Integration of schools, Businesses , neighborhoods in America? It took an act of Congress, the President, the Supreme Court and massive Police intervention to end Segregation and Discrimination in this country. Real people were denied the most basic services, in the name of the "Bible" and in the name of "the constitution".
Reading from the many posts here, It is very obvious to me that lots of people have never been on the other side of Discrimination. I even wonder if these people know anything about American History. I would strongly recommend to read up on Black History in America to understand how discrimination can impact real people lives and generations of people.
By law, when you open a business to the public, you are saying come into my business and you will not be discriminated against. It does not matter what color your skin is, what sex you are, what your sexual preference is, you will all be treated as equals. What ever services you give some customers/clients you must give the same to all customers/clients. No Exceptions.
If you discriminate due to your own bias, your religion, or for other reason, you are breaking the law. If you break the law you will suffer the consequences of your actions.
By law, if you cannot treat all customers/clients equally, you are not to open your doors to the public holding you are a business. It does not matter why you won't treat all customers equally, it is simply the fact that you refuse to do so, that matters.
If you cannot treat all customers equally, without prejudice, then do not go into business. It is simple as that.
By law, when you open a business to the public, you are saying come into my business and you will not be discriminated against. It does not matter what color your skin is, what sex you are, what your sexual preference is, you will all be treated as equals. What ever services you give some customers/clients you must give the same to all customers/clients. No Exceptions.
If you discriminate due to your own bias, your religion, or for other reason, you are breaking the law. If you break the law you will suffer the consequences of your actions.
By law, if you cannot treat all customers/clients equally, you are not to open your doors to the public holding you are a business. It does not matter why you won't treat all customers equally, it is simply the fact that you refuse to do so, that matters.
If you cannot treat all customers equally, without prejudice, then do not go into business. It is simple as that.
This post sums it up nicely, if you aren't interested in treating customers like customers and your biases and religions might prevent you from following the rules and laws of business owners, maybe owning a business is not for you. They all know in advance what the laws are, these laws aren't being sprung on them at the last second.....if you don't want to follow the rules, don't open a business.
Oy people! These slippery slope arguments are getting tedious.
I already went into this in length in another thread in the CE forum, but I will repeat what I said there here (hopefully I'm not stopping on anyone else's response since I only just read the OP):
Anyone, at least anyone w/ any sort of business smarts, in the business of performing a specific service for a client can and should dictate their parameters. I'm an artist and am friends w/ a ton of artists, along w/ bakers, builders, and other creators. Part of whatever contract of agreement you go into w/ a client is-or should be- an explanation of what you will or will not do.
The majority of bakers I've ever known (and I've personally seen 5 bakeries start up from scratch) had rules stating the sort of cakes they wouldn't decorate. A couple have strict "no obscene/racist/abusive language or images" policy. These people would politely decline any request to make a penis cake, regardless of who made it.
On the other hand, one baker I know specializes in risque cakes and pastries and wouldn't hesitate to make a penis cake and has (mostly for bachelorette parties, BTW). She would also create cakes w/ swear words but draws a line at racist/abusive language (no cakes w/ the N-word, swastikas, etc).
Some photographers I know refuse to do anything in the realm of nude or near-nude/risque photos, even if asked (and they have been asked!). And some I know make a living photographing doing just that.
As an artist or business owner, YOU CAN dictate the limits of your service. HOWEVER, there is a massive difference from not creating a certain item vs. outright refusal of service and/or wholesale discrimination against a customer. If someone came in asking for a penis cake or other morally offensive product, a business owner can simply say "we don't do those things here" and offer another suggestion. But if you provide cakes to one type of customers, you must provide the same item to another type of customer as well.
The issues arising here is that these business owners think that not liking the idea of gay marriage is an excuse for outright discrimination against people. If a straight couple comes in for 12 dozen white roses for their wedding and a gay couple comes in for 12 dozen white roses for their wedding, under what argument, BESIDES religion, can you deny one party's request over another? Now, if one of those couple came in asking for 12 dozen white roses soaked in the blood of freshly killed puppies, sure, deny that request based on moral objections.
In the end, if you have a business that is opened to the public at large, you should serve the public at large. That's it.
Errant nonsense. No one is inviting the baker to the wedding! It is discrimination against people. The baker is not participating in the wedding - he or she is only baking a cake and getting paid for it.
If you want to look at it that way, NO interaction is "with a person", they are ALL events. The events being anything from dinner to a birthday part to a wedding.
So by your lights, a Mormon baker can refuse to sell cupcakes to people who drink alcohol, because then they would be "participating" in the party where those cupcakes are going to be consumed - along with alcoholic beverages.
That's just self-serving nonsense.
In none of these cases did the person refuse service to people entering the establishment to make a purchase. NONE. They refused to be a part of a "marriage" which was outside their faith which states that a marriage is between a man and a woman. It is so simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
Pray tell, what is a "gay themed cake"? Seriously, cakes for gay weddings are very rarely any different from cakes for hetero weddings. Many times there is ZERO difference (cake toppers in the shape of two people aren't always used and, if they are, may be bought and customized from another location and added on to the cake later). Some of you people seem to have this idea in mind that the LGBT community is only ordering penis shaped cake & confectioneries, rainbow colored tidbits, leather chaps, and other stereotypical "gay" items.
So, if the service provider had no idea that they were serving a couple other than the marriage of a man and a woman, there wouldn't be a problem but then, that wouldn't make the news would it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamies
OK, let's try this. What if I call up and order a three tier wedding cake with white icing and I tell the baker that is all I want, a three tier wedding cake and I want it delivered to my house or I'll pick it up, wherever. I don't ask for little people statues, no names, nothing, just maybe a couple of wedding bells in icing.
Not asking them to come and cut the cake at the wedding, just bake a cake. Are they going to require a background and social register check for all their customers just in case a gay slips in over the phone.
What business is it of the baker if I just like wedding cake and want to eat the whole thing myself? What if I don't tell them if I am gay, straight, or black. What if AFTER they deliver the cake I then tell them I'm gay, or black muslim and I'm going to eat my cake at my wedding? What if I'm a gay black muslim? Will they come and repossess my cake? Sue me for fraud?
This shows the total failure of their religious freedom arguement. Religious freedom means the freedom to worship free of government interferrence. It does NOT mean the freedom to discriminate or refuse service to sections of the public.
Again, the same. If the service provider had no idea that they were serving a couple other than the marriage of a man and a woman as God intended, there would not be an issue. Again, so simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks
Exactly. And besides, what right does the baker have to say, "Your morals don't measure up to my/my God's standards?" or "Because I think you are going to burn in the Lake of Fire, I'm not making the cake for you." I'm curious to know if this Baronelle person has ever lied, cheated, stolen, gotten divorced, committed adultery, slapped someone, or even slept with another woman in her younger years Isn't God supposed to be loving and forgiving? And what of her accepting his money on all those previous occasions, knowing he was gay, and not now? I'm not understanding her hypocrisy.
The baker, the florist, the candlestick maker are not saying anything about the lack of morals involved in a "gay marriage" but about themselves and their religious convictions. It is the paranoia associated with homosexuality that gets their panties in a bunch. I can understand that one would develop paranoia associated with deviant behavior but there is treatment for that.
Moderator cut: off topic
I think it would be useful from the get-go for a business to have filed with whatever paperwork they file to operate a business, a document that proclaims their religious beliefs and the limits that might have on serving customers through contract. Most likely based on this, not a judgement by a man but by the laws of God: http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
The First Amendment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_A...s_Constitution
I firmly believe in the separation of church and state so sadly, I would say that gay marriage should be legal as long as I don't have to participate in any way. I also feel that polygamy and prostitution should be legal since it is wrong only in a moral sense. But, if you support that, you have to support the government not telling someone that they must impede their religious beliefs in order to run a private business. Every coin has two sides. "Free exercise of religion".
H
However, a cake for a wedding demands participation.
there is no participation. they bring the cake to the venue, and that's it.
They are not forced to watch the ceremony, walk down the aisle or dance or eat the gay cake.
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