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Sandy Hook and other school shootings like the 2006 Amish school shooting (and potential rape of the female students), 1999's Columbine, 2001's California shooting, as well as other public shootings whether it was malls, office buildings, movie theaters or politicians doing town hall meetings. The office building is fairly similar to this as well.
I highly doubt that a crazed individual can really be stopped by a security guard. A few things you ignored. Sandy Hook was a rare case where someone who didn't belong in the school was the perpetrator. Usually (Columbine is a great example) the killer is someone who is a student and thus had the right to be there. Short of operating the school on lockdown Columbine would not have been prevented by security. One cannot have screening on school buses, points of assembly outside the school or even at the inevitable conga line created to obtain legitimate access. In short there is no solution other than urging people, at all times, to be alert to other people acting oddly. In other words "if you see something say something."
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk
The cell phone ban is due to distracted driving. I see so many drivers on their phones weaving between lanes like they are drunk. That and you can EASILY blow lights and stop signs by looking down at your phone for a text or trying to call someone. Now if we do more merging technology like in newer cars where you can reply to texts or call bluetooth wise, it will be the same thing.
As I conceded above texting bans are probably needed. Similarly, New York is the only state that requires a motorist to maintain one hand on the wheel at all times. That is reasonable, but banning hand-held device use is not. It's an example of legislation passed by people with too much time on their hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk
TSA is a nessicary evil with 9/11 and the shoe-bomber. I don't like it any more than you but I am yet to hear a better alternative. The alternative is that we can see costs increase due to terrorism as we see fewer seats after planes crash or blow up and they have to buy newer planes to replace those lost.
The "better alternative" is behavioral profiling, and "if you see something say something." The response to the "sneaker bomber" and the scheme to blow up a plane using shampoo bottles has been panic. A more considered response would be sky marshals. Yes, it costs money but having real people watching is indispensable. The cure has cost far more than the disease. I wouldn't be surprised if airport security hasn't netted a single bomber. We are now more than 13 years after 9/11 and despite mutterings no one has attacked equally crowded facilities as New York City, Washington's or Chicago's mass transit systems or for that matter urban expressways. For certain hazards, mommy can't tuck you in at night and keep you safe. Frankly and this is not politically correct but if we target the groups that are identifiably at war with us rather than 86 year old grandmothers from Queens we'd be a lot safer. And you can be sure that the ethnic communities that suffer inconvenience would get control of matters in a hurry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk
Low speed limits are fairly similar but remember by adding 5 mph, you need to add about 300 feet to breaking distance. This reminds me of the proposal to switch to yield signs from stop signs, it's just going to lead to more problems IMO.
Do you seriously think that people really obey low speed limits? I just got off the Hutchinson River Parkway, which posts a 55 mph limit in my area. No one was going under 70. A police car sat in the grass in the opposite direction and it could have pulled over the entire highway.
Having laws that are destined to not be enforced breeds contempt for the law.
And in the meantime, the Glass-Steagal Act still hasn't been reinstated, and banks and wall street are still bundling iffy investment packages together to sell to your pension fund managers. One of the latest bubbles, believe it or not, is almond groves in California. Wall Street is actually EXPANDING almond farming in CA, buying up marginal land at the height of the drought, and planting it with almond trees, to capitalize on the boom in international demand for the product. How long do you think that bubble is going to last, before the drought brings it crashing down? And the CA legislature is allowing this.
Deregulation is what caused bankruptcies in the airline industry, and outsourcing of plane interiors construction to Mexico.
You're railing against big business deregulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Regulation is your friend.
Your thread topic isn't really about regulation, OP. It's about the need for more security. And by the way, no one's stopping you from pulling over to the side of the road to do your phoning or texing, when you're in the car.
What I'm talking about is these petty regulations that more affect individuals and small businesses. Regulations that, to quote one of the posters, prevents parents from walking the halls of their own kids' schools. You read only as far as cell use. There's a lot else in my post.
The reason for over regulation is that we became a scared nation, living in constant fear. The media plays a major role in this transformation, creating panic and mass hysteria about everything.
But the media is just a catalyst.
One source is politics. Politicians want to show they are doing something. The best way is legislating nonstop laws and regulations for all to see. The more you "work hard" legislating, better chances you get to be reelected.
But the ultimate reason is MONEY. It all comes down to money. Who will pay in case something goes wrong?Employers are fearful. School districts are afraid. Retailers are afraid you will stick the pencil you bought into your ear. Than you sue. Same about the boiling coffee at McDonalds. They don't care about people. But money? That's different.
If a child gets hurt at the playground while playing unsupervised, who will pay millions in damages? Better close the playground.
Train derailment? The engineer drove 106mph in a 50mph zone? Reduce the 50mph to 40. It shows you are doing something. Having 2 people at the controls? Gee, that costs money. Better reduce the 50mph to 20. Or shut down the damn railway. It's safer.
As I conceded above texting bans are probably needed. Similarly, New York is the only state that requires a motorist to maintain one hand on the wheel at all times. That is reasonable, but banning hand-held device use is not. It's an example of legislation passed by people with too much time on their hands.
I bet the over 3000 people killed by distracted each year in the US would find banning all hand-held devices reasonable. As you can see, the problem gets worse every year. There is no reason good enough EVER to text and drive. I hope you don't kill someone before you realize that.
"In 2012, 3,328 people were killed in crashes involving a distracted driver, compared to 3,360 in 2011. An additional, 421,000 people were injured in motor vehicle crashes involving a distracted driver in 2012, a 9% increase from the 387,000 people injured in 2011.1"
First, for some of this there is in fact no national regulation, as far as I know. I think driving while on a cell phone is still legal in most places, for instance.
Second, confronted with a problem - usually only after a disaster has occurred - there's a tendency to hope to close the barn door. Since men are in charge, the impulse it to address the problem with technology.
Third, from what I've read, lower speeding limits have in fact made tremendous difference.
Fourth, some of it exists because people allow it to exist. When the airports started doing the X-ray scans, if everyone - or even 30% of travelers - had opted for a pat-down instead, they would have abandoned the system within a month because of the bottlenecks.
And in the meantime, the Glass-Steagal Act still hasn't been reinstated, and banks and wall street are still bundling iffy investment packages together to sell to your pension fund managers. One of the latest bubbles, believe it or not, is almond groves in California. Wall Street is actually EXPANDING almond farming in CA, buying up marginal land at the height of the drought, and planting it with almond trees, to capitalize on the boom in international demand for the product. How long do you think that bubble is going to last, before the drought brings it crashing down? And the CA legislature is allowing this.
Deregulation is what caused bankruptcies in the airline industry, and outsourcing of plane interiors construction to Mexico.
Regulation is your friend.
Your thread topic isn't really about regulation, OP. It's about the need for more security. And by the way, no one's stopping you from pulling over to the side of the road to do your phoning or texing, when you're in the car.
You hear all sorts of misinformation by people who know absolutely nothing about agriculture. Farmers have been bulldozing almond and citrus groves by the thousands of acres, and replanting with seedlings. The reason is that seedlings only require a small fraction of the water it takes to maintain a mature tree. If they intend to stay in the orchard business, that is just about the only way to do it. The bet is on whether the drought will last forever, or if the rains will eventually return. Farmers know that droughts eventually end. They always do.
City people have no memory. Everyone has forgotten them sandbagging Temple Square in Salt Lake City because there were several years of above average rainfall and the Great Salt Lake was expanding into the city. The only thing Californians care about is that they might not be able to water their lawns every day.
The reason for over regulation is that we became a scared nation, living in constant fear. The media plays a major role in this transformation, creating panic and mass hysteria about everything.
But the media is just a catalyst.
One source is politics. Politicians want to show they are doing something. The best way is legislating nonstop laws and regulations for all to see. The more you "work hard" legislating, better chances you get to be reelected.
Quite true. Media does not discuss the complexities of the issue. One that merited discussion was that a person as bloodthirsty as the Sandy Hook killer would have simply wasted the security guard. And I repeat, again, that Columbine and most such atrocities involve current students who have I.D. and the full right to go anywhere they want in school whenever the building is open. That is why I say there is no substitute for getting to know the maladjusted and isolated people since what you don't know can hurt you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1
But the ultimate reason is MONEY. It all comes down to money....
Train derailment? The engineer drove 106mph in a 50mph zone? Reduce the 50mph to 40. It shows you are doing something. Having 2 people at the controls? Gee, that costs money. Better reduce the 50mph to 20. Or shut down the damn railway. It's safer.
Great example. And that is why in the case of airlines I keep hammering on sky marshals. That costs money but actually does something. Ask El Al Airlines. In theory Israel is the reason for most of the terror in the Middle East. How many hijackings has El Al had since 1970, when the pilot threw the plane into a steep dive and the hijacker was pinned in the aisle?
Last edited by Ibginnie; 05-26-2015 at 09:41 AM..
Reason: orphaned reply to deleted post
This post is occasioned by innocuous events of the last several weeks that points to some glaring problems, all involving over-regulation. These rules and procedures are costly, inefficient and provide few benefits.
Security desks and entrance regulations at schools - A few days ago I went to drop a cell phone off for my son at his high school. He had called and I said I would leave it at the principal's office. I was greeted at the front door by a friendly and pleasant security guard. I had to leave it with him. We got to talking. I pointed out that back in the day I visited my high school alma mater and went right to teachers' offices, and to my old club offices. Now that would be impossible. He pointed out that there used to be all kinds of entrances and exits that people could use. Now every entrance is a cluster and a delay, all because of the one-off incident in Sandy Hook. We went centuries before Sandy Hook without such rules; are there suddenly hundreds of monsters out there that would kill children? Remember most such tragedies, such as Columbine, involve current students, not outsiders.
Cell phone and texting restrictions while driving - I get that people can be distracted by such activities. But wouldn't it be better if people could alert their destination that they were running late rather than speeding?
Security at office buildings - Right after 9/11 we began seeing almost all office buildings having restricted access for "security" reasons. Any reason a terrorist bent on making a statement couldn't just blow himself up anywhere he sees a line, such as a theater entrance or subway station? We have made it impossible for people such as myself, for example, who are looking for jobs to simply show up, hand in a CV and demonstrate motivation and drive. Or for spouses to surprise each other at work? Or close friends similarly? How many terror attacks are really prevented this way?
Security at airports - We have made air travel cumbersome. Thus, for example, I am planning to travel to Washington, DC a few weeks from now from the New York City area. Train travel is ridiculously expensive for a trip of about 5 hours. If I take a plane, back in the day it was a shuttle that was about a one hour flight. Now, adding security time at airport, it's 3 hours. Maybe I'll just drive. Heck, gas is cheap these days. Imagine the financial impact this must be having on the air industry? It would make far more sense to do spot checking, behavioral profiling, and the random use of sky marshals. But hey, it's racist to target people at war with us.
Low speed limits - See this thread (link). Low and arbitrary limits are only selectively enforced on a "shooting fish in a barrel" basis. They contribute nothing to safety since in general traffic flows at around 70 on highways, and 40 or 45 on most secondary roads.
All of these rules, and more that other think of, are annoying at best. At worst, they detract from productivity and waste valuable time and resources.
The NSA is probably going to continues to spy on US citizens without ever having any sort of legal charge, even if the massively unconstitutional patriot act isn't renewed. I did hear these was a bill called 'The American freedom act' to try and stop the Patriot act (yes, the American Freedom Act vs. the Patriot Act; it's not a bit on Colbert's show, it's real) but it's not like the NSA is going to stop, and of course there's a wing of radical small government constitutional republicans who want to increase the size of government to have authority to violate your 4th amendment rights because we can't let them terrorists win.
And you complain because you can't text while driving? All of the regulations you mentioned are either small safety precautions or an issue of the free market. Turns out, any building can hire security for whatever reason they want. And texting while driving puts everyone at risk. These are minor inconveniences at best. Worry about real things, like the TTP or the fate of the Patriot Act.
Quite true. Media does not discuss the complexities of the issue. One that merited discussion was that a person as bloodthirsty as the Sandy Hook killer would have simply wasted the security guard. And I repeat, again, that Columbine and most such atrocities involve current students who have I.D. and the full right to go anywhere they want in school whenever the building is open. That is why I say there is no substitute for getting to know the maladjusted and isolated people since what you don't know can hurt you.
Great example. And that is why in the case of airlines I keep hammering on sky marshals. That costs money but actually does something. Ask El Al Airlines. In theory Israel is the reason for most of the terror in the Middle East. How many hijackings has El Al had since 1970, when the pilot threw the plane into a steep dive and the hijacker was pinned in the aisle?
I agree on texting (since that's a manual operation) but not talking. First of all if you've lost someone due to an accident of course the grief is endless. But the cost to society of 100% safety is simply too high. There has to be a balance between liberty, productivity and safety.
For years it was common. Did this suddenly change in December 2012?
I graduated high school in 1975. I visited my high school alma matter in January 1976, May 1976 and January 1977. I visited a former teacher of mine at his home in June 1978, and in 1977 procured a recommendation for employment that I needed. I actually ran into a few of my former classmates that had graduated on the first two of those visits.
Hardly. I am just someone who likes to balance costs and benefits.
I seriously don't know anyone that went back and visited their high school. I am sure there are those rare few that want to, but as I said, do not be obnoxious and go while school is in session. Arrange to go during break or even after school. I am sure most schools wouldn't mind letting people poke around when children are NOT present. It IS a matter of safety. Schools ARE RESPONSIBLE for the safety and well being of their students. It is a big deal for a parent to hand over this responsibility to educators every day. With school shootings, gun violence and general violence on the rise I applaud every step each school takes to protect those lives. You are pretty arrogant to think these safety measures are such a burden on your life that they should be scaled back because they "waste your time."
And you are a busy bee. All your complaints have to do with wasting time. You don't like slow speed limits, you want to text and drive (multitask), you don't like taking extra time to check in at an airport, or check in at your kid's school. You are probably rushing from one thing to the next throughout the day and these safety measures slow you down. Get over yourself. Safety and security or more important than speed and how many meetings, errands, jobs, etc you can cram into a single day. Yeah, maybe the odds of something bad happening at your kid's school are slim, but better safe than sorry. Oh and these things like extra security also provide good jobs which are in short supply these days. So leave early, plan ahead and quit complaining.
I highly doubt that a crazed individual can really be stopped by a security guard. A few things you ignored. Sandy Hook was a rare case where someone who didn't belong in the school was the perpetrator. Usually (Columbine is a great example) the killer is someone who is a student and thus had the right to be there. Short of operating the school on lockdown Columbine would not have been prevented by security. One cannot have screening on school buses, points of assembly outside the school or even at the inevitable conga line created to obtain legitimate access. In short there is no solution other than urging people, at all times, to be alert to other people acting oddly. In other words "if you see something say something." As I conceded above texting bans are probably needed. Similarly, New York is the only state that requires a motorist to maintain one hand on the wheel at all times. That is reasonable, but banning hand-held device use is not. It's an example of legislation passed by people with too much time on their hands. The "better alternative" is behavioral profiling, and "if you see something say something." The response to the "sneaker bomber" and the scheme to blow up a plane using shampoo bottles has been panic. A more considered response would be sky marshals. Yes, it costs money but having real people watching is indispensable. The cure has cost far more than the disease. I wouldn't be surprised if airport security hasn't netted a single bomber. We are now more than 13 years after 9/11 and despite mutterings no one has attacked equally crowded facilities as New York City, Washington's or Chicago's mass transit systems or for that matter urban expressways. For certain hazards, mommy can't tuck you in at night and keep you safe. Frankly and this is not politically correct but if we target the groups that are identifiably at war with us rather than 86 year old grandmothers from Queens we'd be a lot safer. And you can be sure that the ethnic communities that suffer inconvenience would get control of matters in a hurry.Do you seriously think that people really obey low speed limits? I just got off the Hutchinson River Parkway, which posts a 55 mph limit in my area. No one was going under 70. A police car sat in the grass in the opposite direction and it could have pulled over the entire highway.
Having laws that are destined to not be enforced breeds contempt for the law.
1) Columbine could have been (possibly) prevented with metal detectors in schools. Some schools do do this as well as ban sport jerseys with the number 13 on them and shirts in known local gang colors.
2) Why is a ban on hand-held device not reasonable. Give me a few good reasons to cover that.
3) We had the shoe bomber but that was across the Atlantic that did cause a lot more scrutiny on liquids and items brought on planes. Snowglobes can't be brought on planes because the mechanic resemble bombs despite being tokens of peace.
4) Behavioral profiling is often legalized racial profiling. I remember stories of Muslims in New York being profiled post 9/11 even if they lived peacefully in their community for years before with no trouble. That and the whole blacks and even hispancs are instantly guilty deal.
5) I know people go faster than posted speed limits but that will happen even with the highest speed limits. Arizona has 75 mph speed limits yet you hear of people going into the 90's.
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