Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
OP, why do you really want socialism? A family is a socialist entity, parents produce for the good of the collective, while the children consume without producing anything. Parental love for their children, and each other, is what motivates them to produce for the family. Trying to get everyone in society to sacrifice their individual interest for the good of the everyone. Then there are some families that adult members don't want to contribute their share, example, dead beat dads. And you think it will work with a nation of people? Wake up.
Anyone who wants socialism doesn't understand human nature.
My point is that I think taking full advantage of automation to modernize society will put people out of work without creating as many jobs as it eliminates and that it is likely not going to be profitable to implement. These technologies are no longer sci-fi. Our economic model may be the biggest impediment in implementing them. We insist on everyone doing their fair share even though there isn't enough work to go around and as we advance automation there will be even less.
The problem with your "utopia" is that it ignores the human need to feel useful. Human beings need to contribute in some way, even if its only growing a few veggies in the garden for their family.
Given our current level of automation, no one should need to work for more than about 4 hours per day, 4 or 5 days a week. And that 15 or 20 hours per week can and should be paid at the "maintenance level" some others have suggested.
If you want extra, or more than that - then you would need to volunteer for the jobs nobody really wants to do, like cleaning toilets, or doing laundry for a hospital. Whatever jobs come up short on bodies. And everyone who is physically or mentally capable should be cycled through those jobs say once a month (or whatever works out) as part of their normal work rotation.
There would be no mega-rich, and there would be no mega-poor. And automation of everything is not the answer. Automation should work in the service of people and not in the service of the accumulation of wealth. Furniture could be made by hand - with the help of power tools.
In 2011, the rate of un-and-under-employment among people able and willing to work was 45%
Today, the percentage of workers who are working 30 or more hours per week "for an employer that provides a regular paycheck" is 44%.
The other 56% of workers are working less than 30 hours per week or are in temporary positions.
And then there are all the people who don't have any job at all, but want one. That is 30% of the population.
There are PLENTY of people who could work as potters, plumbers, construction, repair - whatever needs to be done, and not in the onerous body-breaking ways of our ancestors.
Sure, make some things by machine - but let people make things by hand as well to earn their keep. We have the people. We have the infrastructure. Now if only we could get rid of the 1% and cure our addiction to capitalism. In time, even the 1% would lead happier, more fulfilled lives.
And no, I am not talking about violent overthrow. I'm talking about the human race growing up and starting to behave like adults instead of ignorant greedy grasping children.
I worked for a British company that was taken over by the then socialist government. Business decisions were made for political reasons and the company went from bad to worse. The main problem is that socialism is a highly developed bad idea that doesn't work. The company recovered only when it was privatized by the Thatcher government.
The problem with your "utopia" is that it ignores the human need to feel useful. Human beings need to contribute in some way, even if its only growing a few veggies in the garden for their family.
Given our current level of automation, no one should need to work for more than about 4 hours per day, 4 or 5 days a week. And that 15 or 20 hours per week can and should be paid at the "maintenance level" some others have suggested.
If you want extra, or more than that - then you would need to volunteer for the jobs nobody really wants to do, like cleaning toilets, or doing laundry for a hospital. Whatever jobs come up short on bodies. And everyone who is physically or mentally capable should be cycled through those jobs say once a month (or whatever works out) as part of their normal work rotation.
There would be no mega-rich, and there would be no mega-poor. And automation of everything is not the answer. Automation should work in the service of people and not in the service of the accumulation of wealth. Furniture could be made by hand - with the help of power tools.
In 2011, the rate of un-and-under-employment among people able and willing to work was 45%
Today, the percentage of workers who are working 30 or more hours per week "for an employer that provides a regular paycheck" is 44%.
The other 56% of workers are working less than 30 hours per week or are in temporary positions.
And then there are all the people who don't have any job at all, but want one. That is 30% of the population.
There are PLENTY of people who could work as potters, plumbers, construction, repair - whatever needs to be done, and not in the onerous body-breaking ways of our ancestors.
Sure, make some things by machine - but let people make things by hand as well to earn their keep. We have the people. We have the infrastructure. Now if only we could get rid of the 1% and cure our addiction to capitalism. In time, even the 1% would lead happier, more fulfilled lives.
And no, I am not talking about violent overthrow. I'm talking about the human race growing up and starting to behave like adults instead of ignorant greedy grasping children.
You are correct in that additional automation isn't required. You can make a pretty good case for social democracy based on the current state of affairs. A lot of people are upset about the upcoming reduction in the US Army because there isn't much else for those soldiers to do.
I don't have a problem with more effort or clever innovation being rewarded with a bigger share. But not 100 times bigger.
Example of people who already take but give nothing back.... Welfare and asked why they don't get a job, we know many feel that “I can’t get a job, I’ll lose my benefits”. Do you really want to work and live the same standard of living as someone who refuses to work? If you say yes, you're lying to yourself.
You really need to look up the Nordic model of social democracy as an example of socialism in practice that works. You can improve your standard by working.
But I am not lying when I say that it would not bother me because I am looking at the situation with cold rational logic. There isn't enough work to go around. So should we randomly assign jobs or let the people who want to work have them and let the people who don't want them do nothing? Just making up jobs so that people "contribute" is silly IMO.
My point is that I think taking full advantage of automation to modernize society will put people out of work without creating as many jobs as it eliminates and that it is likely not going to be profitable to implement. These technologies are no longer sci-fi. Our economic model may be the biggest impediment in implementing them. We insist on everyone doing their fair share even though there isn't enough work to go around and as we advance automation there will be even less.
And thank god technologies arrived and change or we would still be lighting lanterns, riding horse and buggy, chopping wood for heat, "no cell phone, or computers". Think of all those rich people and companies, if it weren't for them investing and making it happen we would live in the dark ages. Companies are not social institutions. Everything changes. What you profess is not moving forward to save jobs when actually change creates new opportunity and jobs that today you never heard of. You got to change with the times or you'll be left behind complaining life isn't fair and that will get you nowhere.
You really need to look up the Nordic model of social democracy as an example of socialism in practice that works. You can improve your standard by working.
But I am not lying when I say that it would not bother me because I am looking at the situation with cold rational logic. There isn't enough work to go around. So should we randomly assign jobs or let the people who want to work have them and let the people who don't want them do nothing? Just making up jobs so that people "contribute" is silly IMO.
You're trying to sell socialism and it won't work. People who don't want to work should get just enough to survive period. There is no reason that they should live the same lifestyle as someone who wants a better life and is willing to work for it. Government Assigning a job LOL. Now that's "not" freedom. Anyone who wants socialism should be "assigned" to be "Groom of the stool". http://www.historyextra.com/qa/royal-jobs
And if you like the Nordic model of socialism, there is this great invention called "airplanes", get on one and move there.
You really need to look up the Nordic model of social democracy as an example of socialism in practice that works. You can improve your standard by working.
But I am not lying when I say that it would not bother me because I am looking at the situation with cold rational logic. There isn't enough work to go around. So should we randomly assign jobs or let the people who want to work have them and let the people who don't want them do nothing? Just making up jobs so that people "contribute" is silly IMO.
I used to be poor ReachTheBeach but instead of hating on the rich I learned all I could about money and now my life is very nice. Socialism, why would I care to try it when in this country I was able to move from poor to upper middle class, some may say rich.
There is one thing that will stop you, actually would have stopped me. I had many neigh sayers around me. Had I listened to them I'd still be poor. Stop listening to sour, angry, hopeless people who will stop you.
I used to be poor ReachTheBeach but instead of hating on the rich I learned all I could about money and now my life is very nice. Socialism, why would I care to try it when in this country I was able to move from poor to upper middle class, some may say rich.
There is one thing that will stop you, actually would have stopped me. I had many neigh sayers around me. Had I listened to them I'd still be poor. Stop listening to sour, angry, hopeless people who will stop you.
I am not poor; I am not a 1%er but ~ top 3%. Not sour and angry as much as disappointed in the greedy attitudes of others who justify having most of the wealth in the hands of a few. Again, I am a proponent of social democracy, which embraces free enterprise and rewards extra effort and clever innovations with a higher standard of living while guaranteeing a good standard of living for all. I am not a proponent of communism or of any non democratic governments. The US is becoming an oligarchy disguised as a democratic republic and that really concerns me.
Last edited by ReachTheBeach; 07-10-2015 at 08:18 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
