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Oh sure, because the head of the Catholic Church - which represents about 1 billion people and is an instutition going on 1700 years old, more or less, yeah that's nothing to be listened to.
Oh, we shouldn't pay any attention to that mysticism. Instead of a mystical God we should let ourselves be guided by an Invisible Hand that always does the right thing.
That's logical.
I don't know what's worse - the disdain for religion or the inability to see that belief in free market orthodoxy is an article of faith in itself. No, I do know what's worse. The latter.
Bull feces. Most Catholics are smarter than this silly pope and most Catholics functionally ignore him on a day to day basis. Because to follow him literally would send one back to the stone age. This particular pope is a Marxist-collectivist, and a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has no business commenting on economics or science, which reside in the realm of Reason, not mysticism. He is in the wrong department. Let him pontificate on idle nonsense such as the afterlife. Preaching love is OK too. But stay the hell out of business and science and governance. He has no qualifications, no training, and no expertise, just idle opinions which happen to be very wrong.
Let's not forget that the pope is just a man like you and me, and as such his opinions are of the same value as yours and mine. And if they aren't in consonance with reality, as his aren't, than they are of the same value uttered from him as they would be if uttered from a drunk on a railroad tie.
The free market is why we have America, and Islams have Syria and Iran, why we are wealthy and happy and awash in opportunity, while third world theocracies and dictatorships are awash in famine, corruption, and savagery.
You want to see the physical manifestation of the free market? Stand in Weehawken and observe in wonder what is staring back from across the river. Built by Capitalism and the healthy human spirit of self-interest.
You want to see the physical manifestation of mysticism and collectivism? Go to any Middle Eastern or North African backwardocracy and see how far you get with your creativity and your dream. Which is nowhere, because they'll stab you in your eyes if you dare to violate Sharia Law or tribal law or act differently or creatively in any way.
Capitalism is real, it is based on virtue, it is based on trade, it is based on freedom, and it depends on the best virtues of man for its incredible efficiency in raising the standard of living for everyone.
In contrast, if we lived under a papalocracy, we'd be feeding goats, dying of the flu, and loading backpacks on donkeys.
I agree. Capitalism doesn't work in America because of Slavery. Slavery created a hierarchy, with whites at the top enjoying every advantage imaginable, and blacks on the bottom forced to struggle with every single disadvantage known to mankind. These unequal positions are and have always been a cancer, and in order for the system to be fair to everyone, whites must be forced to give up the "unearned privileges" they enjoy. Blacks, native Americans, and any other group which has been historically-discriminated against and disadvantage because of their race, must be made whole.
Only when all participants in the system have equal positions, will the system be fair to everyone, not just whites.
There are no groups, there is no privilege, there is nothing to make "whole". You are an individual. Be excellent and you will go as far as you need to. Stop making excuses. Take care of business and be excellent.
Bull feces. Most Catholics are smarter than this silly pope and most Catholics functionally ignore him on a day to day basis. Because to follow him literally would send one back to the stone age. This particular pope is a Marxist-collectivist, and a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has no business commenting on economics or science, which reside in the realm of Reason, not mysticism. He is in the wrong department. Let him pontificate on idle nonsense such as the afterlife. Preaching love is OK too. But stay the hell out of business and science and governance. He has no qualifications, no training, and no expertise, just idle opinions which happen to be very wrong.
Let's not forget that the pope is just a man like you and me, and as such his opinions are of the same value as yours and mine. And if they aren't in consonance with reality, as his aren't, than they are of the same value uttered from him as they would be if uttered from a drunk on a railroad tie.
The free market is why we have America, and Islams have Syria and Iran, why we are wealthy and happy and awash in opportunity, while third world theocracies and dictatorships are awash in famine, corruption, and savagery.
You want to see the physical manifestation of the free market? Stand in Weehawken and observe in wonder what is staring back from across the river. Built by Capitalism and the healthy human spirit of self-interest.
You want to see the physical manifestation of mysticism and collectivism? Go to any Middle Eastern or North African backwardocracy and see how far you get with your creativity and your dream. Which is nowhere, because they'll stab you in your eyes if you dare to violate Sharia Law or tribal law or act differently or creatively in any way.
Capitalism is real, it is based on virtue, it is based on trade, it is based on freedom, and it depends on the best virtues of man for its incredible efficiency in raising the standard of living for everyone.
In contrast, if we lived under a papalocracy, we'd be feeding goats, dying of the flu, and loading backpacks on donkeys.
I won't respond to most of this but 1) Francis is only saying what's in the Bible and what has been Catholic social teaching for centuries. If you've got a beef with that, you've got a beef with the Bible. The Pope's primary job is to interpret the Bible. The Pope's opinion on biblical matters and how they apply to society a holds a lot more weight than yours or mine. He is the ultimate arbiter of Biblical interpretation for the largest Christian denomination.
Most priests I've talked to (and I've talked to a decent number since my uncle is one) agrees with his interpretation.
As for the bolded statement - I find it very interesting that you do not see the faith based nature of it.
And what exactly is wrong with the "unfettered pursuit of money"?
This is what makes capitalism a great system. Though there seems to be less of it, there are opportunities for class mobility. My mom is a great example. She had me at 18, no college education, was a single mother, did not receive child support payments, and lived in a terrible city called Chester, PA. What did she do? She worked her butt off to be where she is today, which is an Accounts Executive. The 1990s had a great economy, and she was able to go from being a temp hire to making nearly 6 figures today. This is what inspires me. This is why, at 19, I am in college trying to make a better life for me, my future wife, and future children.
In life, there will always be winners and losers. The best I can do is take every possible step to ensure that I don't end up a loser.
I agree. Capitalism doesn't work in America because of Slavery. Slavery created a hierarchy, with whites at the top enjoying every advantage imaginable, and blacks on the bottom forced to struggle with every single disadvantage known to mankind. These unequal positions are and have always been a cancer, and in order for the system to be fair to everyone, whites must be forced to give up the "unearned privileges" they enjoy. Blacks, native Americans, and any other group which has been historically-discriminated against and disadvantage because of their race, must be made whole.
Only when all participants in the system have equal positions, will the system be fair to everyone, not just whites.
There was a "hierarchy" long before slavery -- in the "Hollywood" sense as spoon-fed to the young -- developed, and that hierarchy imprisoned and stagnated a much larger proportion of the population at that time, The critical difference -- and it took about four centuries to run its course -- was that from 1490 to 1870, the structure changed from one of birth to one of (mostly new) wealth -- and wealth can (and does) change hands. Oppression is usually linked to a power-structure, and too many of those so-called "progressives" are just trying to set up one of their own.
The "equal positions" you have in mind represent equality of result, rather than equality of opportunity, and that policy destroys all incentive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
Well if we destroy the environment then we'll cease to live - everything we have comes from the earth, it's all a reciprocal system. Until we start mining asteroids and colonizing space it's probably a good idea to keep our planet habitable.
Or rather, not change our climate so much that the planet changes and becomes uninhabitable for us. The planet will be fine - the worst we could possibly do to it would be cleaned out by natural processes in 100,000 years, that's like a day in the life of the Earth. But us? We're fragile, we won't survive that.
Your post represents mostly speculation and science fantasy -- aimed, as always, at the impressionable -- rather than empirical, "hard" science.
Fifty years ago, "scientists" (within the "camp" of a particular school of thought, that is) were warning about a "coming ice age"; there is solid geologic evidence that a considerably wetter climate existed in what is now the Sahara Desert; and so on. The climate does, indeed, change -- has been long before man discovered that. But it is only when -- and if -- the change can be linked to human activity, that the seekers of power get the opportunity to benefit at the expense of the rest of us.
"Colonizing space" is a dream that's a long way off, if ever; but I doubt that societal activity has much more effect within a cosmos which seems likely to balance things out via the processes of nature. As you yourself pointed out, the planet will be fine. But are we really expected to believe that a clique of bureaucrats, armed with a "popular" theory, will act in the name of some supposed "greater good", rather than its own agenda?
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-12-2015 at 12:35 AM..
I seems to me theat Pope Francis is an actual Christian and really believes in the basics of that religion. He is preaching Christianity to a world dominated by the pagan God of Greed.
Mammon believes only in gaining more money and the associated control. Mammon does not favor a Free Market over collusion and Monopoly because the latter serve Greed far more effectively then any Market. We are a World that has been dominated by Mammon for several thousand years and, I expect, will be dominated by the same Princes of Mammon for several thousand more.
What we really need is to have all the nonsensical ideas of Free Market Capitalism to be actually tried instead of the far less risky Collusion and Monopoly.
I won't respond to most of this but 1) Francis is only saying what's in the Bible and what has been Catholic social teaching for centuries. If you've got a beef with that, you've got a beef with the Bible. The Pope's primary job is to interpret the Bible. The Pope's opinion on biblical matters and how they apply to society a holds a lot more weight than yours or mine. He is the ultimate arbiter of Biblical interpretation for the largest Christian denomination.
Most priests I've talked to (and I've talked to a decent number since my uncle is one) agrees with his interpretation.
As for the bolded statement - I find it very interesting that you do not see the faith based nature of it.
Faith is accepting something as true without proof. Observing the reality of Capitalism is not based on faith, it is based on empirical observation.
If we observe a sample of all the countries on Earth, we can see reality. While true laissez-faire Capitalism has never been practiced, mixed economies that integrate Capitalistic features do exist. And so do theocracies and authoritarian countries where the state controls the economy. Those countries that have the most Capitalism (freedom) move the world forward and bring the highest standard of living.
Authoritarian and theocratic countries remain mired in primitivism and irrationality, and are retarded in development, progress, happiness, well-being, and general goodness.
So we see the United States, Canada, and western Europe defining success for the world. While the tyrannical theocracies and backward dictatorships of Africa and Central and South America lag behind, unable to even feed their populations.
Then we see an interesting case like China. Traditionally authoritarian-collectivist. But they tried a little dose of Capitalism and Free Markets. And what happened? What you would expect from a country with 1.4 billion people. Set them free, even a lit bit, and the progress and advancement start.
So, your contention that my support for Capitalism is based on faith is incorrect. It is based on reality and observation. Where Capitalism is practiced, people experience forward motion, creativity, innovation, excellence, and advancement. We've seen it. Our country invented it. It spread. It works.
Now, it would be even better if we reduced taxation and regulation even further so that freedom could have its effect to a greater extent. In other words, we need to move further along the continuum to true Capitalism to realize even greater benefits.
The new socio-economic paradigm needs to be more freedom, more Capitalism, less control, less taxation, less redistribution, less mysticism, less irrationalism, more logic, and more Reason.
I am fine with the pope offering comfort and coordinating charity and preaching love. He is harmless for the most part if limited to that activity. He also does not need any particular knowledge, experience, or qualifications to handle that. And if he bungles it, it is with private contributions and does not adversely affect free people.
However, he should cease and desist commentary on economics and science, because he is simply unqualified. Stick to spirituality and the mystical stuff. Leave the real world to those of us who understand it.
To answer the question of do we need a socio-economic paradigm - yes.
Its only common sense.
You can't increase the population and use all the natural resources and end up with anything left.
There are some big crises coming in agriculture and water that will severely impact the kids being born today.
If you haven't realized that by now your letting your emotions/political beliefs blind you.
Natural resources never run out. They simply change. So take water. The ocean is filled with it and as we develop more efficient desalinization techniques, there will be unlimited water for everyone. Not a problem. Same with energy. There are plenty of fossil fuels to take us forward for another century or so, then we will slowly switch to nuclear, wind and solar. Or something else completely that hasn't even been invented yet.
Don't worry. Be happy. Man is smart when he decides to use Reason and can solve all problems with respect to natural resources. If we can't find them, we will rearrange atoms to create them.
Have Faith. In Man.
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