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Here's a quote from the museum site that you may have missed:
"The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. Holocaust is a word of Greek origin meaning “sacrifice by fire.” The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were “racially superior” and that the Jews, deemed “inferior,” were an alien threat to the so-called German racial community."[emphasis mine]
So, when we consider that the Nazi holocaust included millions of additional victims, many of whom, like the Roma, were marked for extermination, can you honestly say this does not serve to minimize the other victims? Is this not a deliberate exclusion?
I don't know how it could be more clear. "THE Holocaust" is a designation that serves not only to minimize the significance of other holocausts but even the additional victims of this particular holocaust.
The Museum's explanation aside, "The Holocaust" was and will always be remembered as the event that shaped the future of state sponsored antisemitism. Yes there were others who were found to be enemies of the state, but the Jews had a special place in the mindset of rural Germans. Theological differences were the underlying cause of the friction, centuries of Jewish persecution throughout a procession of German governments was common, and not simply an exclusive trait in the Reich.
My comments here have been directed at the feigned outrage over what you are characterizing as a disrespect of the "other" victims by Jews in general. In every book I've read about the days of the Reich the authors have always included the vast list of the German state's enemies, read about the rise of the Friekorps and the allure of such groups by the German youth who were taught at an early age to hate the Jews. Read about the life of Primo Levi and his account of time spent in the concentration camps, in his book, The Drowned and the Saved, he tells of the German hatred for all of those in the camps, I think you're making mountains from molehills.
Mysterious Benefactor, if you're going to quote from the museum site you might want to do a little more in-depth research. From the section entitled "Victims of the Nazi Era: Nazi Racial Ideology" it states "While it classified Jews as the priority "enemy", the Nazi ideological concept of race targeted other groups for persecution, imprisonment and annihilation, including Roma (gypsies), people with disabilities, Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, and Afro-Germans."
I'm aware of what else the site says. You might consider reading between the lines. The clear message is this: "THE Holocaust was the murder of 6 million Jews. Oh, and by the way, there was another various 5 million people killed, too."
So, even if we accept the numbers as accurate, nearly half the victims are mere footnotes.
The Museum's explanation aside, "The Holocaust" was and will always be remembered as the event that shaped the future of state sponsored antisemitism. Yes there were others who were found to be enemies of the state, but the Jews had a special place in the mindset of rural Germans. Theological differences were the underlying cause of the friction, centuries of Jewish persecution throughout a procession of German governments was common, and not simply an exclusive trait in the Reich.
Without question, Jews have been persecuted throughout history, both in Germany and elsewhere. To suggest however that the reason was no more than a matter of "theological differences" is(put politely) disingenuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
My comments here have been directed at the feigned outrage over what you are characterizing as a disrespect of the "other" victims by Jews in general. In every book I've read about the days of the Reich the authors have always included the vast list of the German state's enemies, read about the rise of the Friekorps and the allure of such groups by the German youth who were taught at an early age to hate the Jews. Read about the life of Primo Levi and his account of time spent in the concentration camps, in his book, The Drowned and the Saved, he tells of the German hatred for all of those in the camps, I think you're making mountains from molehills.
It isn't "feigned outrage". You(or anyone else) has yet to explain why the Roma are not considered "Holocaust" victims. And to you perhaps, this is no more than a molehill. I suspect you might think differently if you were Roma, Armenian, Ukrainian, Congolese, etc. Or maybe even if you were Palestinian?
On any level that would be considered worthy of an assumption, I'd posit what I deem as a feigned concern (on the part of some posters) with ALL the people damaged by the Reich, utilized as an attempt to discredit the most well known victims, the Jews. What other reason would one be dredging up something that is now slipping into a rather obscure place in the youthful American consciousness. I'll also state my feelings about the obviousness of tip toeing around such subjects when most already know the heartache still felt by all the victims and their loved ones. As Dylan once observed---You don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows. Antisemitism is alive and well----The Holocaust-- not so much..
Most who have studied the socio/theological/psychological aspects of the Reich are well aware of the rather democratic construct that made up the victim list, and that is where the entire debacle comes to rest---until someone wants to make a case for assuming the Jews were somehow hogging the rather dubious "limelight," thus, making the case for the "others", who, I'm quite certain, have been considered by most of those who have looked into it. The Jews themselves have kept a long vigil with respect to their feelings regarding a past that can not be forgotten by them.
Excellent analysis. I repped the post. You write well enough that you deservedly have a lot more reps than posts.
Anti-Semitism took a very brief "holiday" after Eisenhower and Life Magazine brought the Shoah to living rooms around America. Israel was created during this interval. Now that the Holocaust is being foregotten, anti-Semitism, in the guise of opposition to Israel's self-defense policies, are rearing their ugly head.
Excellent analysis. I repped the post. You write well enough that you deservedly have a lot more reps than posts.
Anti-Semitism took a very brief "holiday" after Eisenhower and Life Magazine brought the Shoah to living rooms around America. Israel was created during this interval. Now that the Holocaust is being foregotten, anti-Semitism, in the guise of opposition to Israel's self-defense policies, are rearing their ugly head.
And there it is. The link between the Holocaust, anti-semitism, and unquestionable support of all Israel so called defense policies. Now all we have left to do is include unquestionable support for all Jewish organizations that raise hundreds of millions of dollars based upon this theme and we can then fully understand why it is so important for some to maintain the trademark H.
And there it is. The link between the Holocaust, anti-semitism, and unquestionable support of all Israel so called defense policies. Now all we have left to do is include unquestionable support for all Jewish organizations that raise hundreds of millions of dollars based upon this theme and we can then fully understand why it is so important for some to maintain the trademark H.
Of course it happened. That is what makes the whole business so sordid. Organizations that did nothing to stop the genocide now comfortably make $100 of millions off their memory for their disgusting benefit. Pretty ugly as I think about it since my whole family died in the camps. Enough said on this matter. Said my piece.
Without question, Jews have been persecuted throughout history, both in Germany and elsewhere. To suggest however that the reason was no more than a matter of "theological differences" is(put politely) disingenuous.It isn't "feigned outrage". You(or anyone else) has yet to explain why the Roma are not considered "Holocaust" victims. And to you perhaps, this is no more than a molehill. I suspect you might think differently if you were Roma, Armenian, Ukrainian, Congolese, etc. Or maybe even if you were Palestinian?
Theological differences, that phrase covers the aggregate conditions that led the Germans and others in Europe to their horrendous treatment of Jews. The fact that in early day Germany, Jews were openly defined and reviled as "the Christ killers" and beaten every Christmas by German youth who were spurred on by the local Christian churches, parents, community etc, only demonstrates the ingrained hatred for all Jews.
Your claiming that I am somehow being disingenuous when considering this huge ideological chasm is simply a showing a lacking on your part to adequately present your argument that would, in your thinking, prove the Jews to be guilty of a kind of grandstanding in regard to their experiences at the hands of the Nazis.
I'll be blunt here and state my view of your claiming to be upset at the thought that others were "left out" of the official Jewish version of the Third Reich. I'm going to pose your "concern" for these "others" as not so much a thing aimed at a hopeful reconciliation of what you deem to be left out facts, but moreover an attempt to malign a group that you have already cast a fair amount of aspersion on by assuming the worst of motives in this entire debate.
I think that your assumed role of championing the people of the Holocaust, minus the Jews, has an eerie aspect to it, and that is manifest in your almost adamant insistence upon framing the debate in terms that are less than than flattering to the Jews. That characterization of the Jews as a people only concerned with their own history is not supported by their well known collective connection with America's social history.
Antisemitism is now a modern construct, complete with a modern presentation that includes the bogus "concern" with all things Jewish, bristling with feigned indignity and anger, each antisemitic presentation of the new-found "facts" surrounding the Holocaust, Jewish history, their perceived role in modern financial constructs, etc, are all founded upon the old notion of Jews as an enemy. In your "new-found" claims, the Jews have done it again, this time their crime is a perceived misrepresentation of the Holocaust as it relates to the entire list of those who were harmed.
The fact of a long history of hatred for Jews being the norm in Germany, supports a commonly held belief that the entire notion of building and operating human extermination camps, creating a public consensus for this, instilling a state sponsored hatred for Jews among Nazi youth groups, creating a systemic bias against Jews in the German judiciary, blaming the German defeat on a Jewish conspiracy in the first world war, all of these measures were aimed not at the groups you so adamantly insist were the Jews equal in misery, but the entire Jewish population world wide.
Here is a sampling of the kind of antisemitic indoctrination that allowed the Jews a front and center position in the creating of the "final solution." From The History Place:
Racial indoctrination in the classroom included teaching young children how to spot a Jew by describing the physical traits which Nazis believed were associated with inferior peoples. In some classrooms, where Jews were still present, a Jewish child would be brought to the front of the class as an example. The teacher would then use a pointer, highlighting certain facial characteristics.
Hitler Youth songs also contained anti-Semitic lyrics including one song that said: "Yes, when the Jewish blood splashes from the knives, things will go twice as well."
I think I've covered my views on this, and won't post further in the interest of allowing others to debate.
Last edited by jertheber; 06-05-2016 at 10:37 AM..
Well once again, "THE Holocaust" was not unique in that it included ethnic cleansing. Secondly, if you don't think Hitler was attempting to exterminate the Roma, then you're misinformed. Why shouldn't the Roma be considered "Holocaust" victims? Do you have a legitimate answer for that?
I'll say it - IGNORANCE. But with a reason - the U.S. was heavily involved in WWII and WWII is given a huge amount of time in any high school history class, along with the Holocaust. It is used as a huge example of man's inhumanity to humanity and it is still within the direct memory of many Americans.
No other genocide has directly or indirectly touched Americans to that degree. That's not to say they are not worthy of note. The press itself has done badly at defining various military actions as genocides as though it is a bad word. It is highly political, true.
It should not be taken personally - I'm sure that in Africa, they could not care less about what Hitler did to white people. Do I think worse of them that they have their own terrible situations that many are living through even as we speak? As an individual I can't do a lot to persuade our government to recognize something as genocide and take "appropriate" action...I don't even know what that really is.
All I know is that we pay attention to and remember the things that affect us the most. And to a certain degree that depends on what we learn in our textbooks and what we see in the news - pretty much how history has always been.
Theological differences, that phrase covers the aggregate conditions that led the Germans and others in Europe to their horrendous treatment of Jews. The fact that in early day Germany, Jews were openly defined and reviled as "the Christ killers" and beaten every Christmas by German youth who were spurred on by the local Christian churches, parents, community etc, only demonstrates the ingrained hatred for all Jews.
Your claiming that I am somehow being disingenuous when considering this huge ideological chasm is simply a showing a lacking on your part to adequately present your argument that would, in your thinking, prove the Jews to be guilty of a kind of grandstanding in regard to their experiences at the hands of the Nazis.
There's no question that theological differences existed. To suggest, however, that this was the sole reason behind the Nazis hatred of the Jews ignores(1)equally fervent Muslim hatred for Jews, and(2) the fact that antisemitism predates Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
I'll be blunt here and state my view of your claiming to be upset at the thought that others were "left out" of the official Jewish version of the Third Reich. I'm going to pose your "concern" for these "others" as not so much a thing aimed at a hopeful reconciliation of what you deem to be left out facts, but moreover an attempt to malign a group that you have already cast a fair amount of aspersion on by assuming the worst of motives in this entire debate.
I think that your assumed role of championing the people of the Holocaust, minus the Jews, has an eerie aspect to it, and that is manifest in your almost adamant insistence upon framing the debate in terms that are less than than flattering to the Jews. That characterization of the Jews as a people only concerned with their own history is not supported by their well known collective connection with America's social history.
Antisemitism is now a modern construct, complete with a modern presentation that includes the bogus "concern" with all things Jewish, bristling with feigned indignity and anger, each antisemitic presentation of the new-found "facts" surrounding the Holocaust, Jewish history, their perceived role in modern financial constructs, etc, are all founded upon the old notion of Jews as an enemy. In your "new-found" claims, the Jews have done it again, this time their crime is a perceived misrepresentation of the Holocaust as it relates to the entire list of those who were harmed.
You're welcome to be blunt and pose whatever you like, but the facts will remain. And you can push the Museum's explanation aside as well if you wish, but those who are wise will see it's very telling. Again I'll state: Neither you nor anyone else has offered any explanation as to why the Roma aren't blessed with the designation of being "Holocaust victims".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
The fact of a long history of hatred for Jews being the norm in Germany, supports a commonly held belief that the entire notion of building and operating human extermination camps, creating a public consensus for this, instilling a state sponsored hatred for Jews among Nazi youth groups, creating a systemic bias against Jews in the German judiciary, blaming the German defeat on a Jewish conspiracy in the first world war, all of these measures were aimed not at the groups you so adamantly insist were the Jews equal in misery, but the entire Jewish population world wide.
Here is a sampling of the kind of antisemitic indoctrination that allowed the Jews a front and center position in the creating of the "final solution." From The History Place:
Racial indoctrination in the classroom included teaching young children how to spot a Jew by describing the physical traits which Nazis believed were associated with inferior peoples. In some classrooms, where Jews were still present, a Jewish child would be brought to the front of the class as an example. The teacher would then use a pointer, highlighting certain facial characteristics.
Hitler Youth songs also contained anti-Semitic lyrics including one song that said: "Yes, when the Jewish blood splashes from the knives, things will go twice as well."
I think I've covered my views on this, and won't post further in the interest of allowing others to debate.
"A long history of hatred for Jews" has been the norm throughout history, not only in Germany, but throughout the world. Maybe you actually believe that the rest of the world is the problem, but that's not what we're discussing on this thread. It's much simpler than that. Shouldn't all holocausts, whoever the victims, be viewed as equally tragic? Shouldn't the Roma lives lost alongside the Jewish victims of WWII be equally remembered?
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