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The defining event for Jewry is their complicity in the destruction of the Palestinian population.
It is not the Jews' fault that the "Palestinians" (actually Arabs resident in part of the former Ottoman Empire) rebuffed every peace opportunity short of Israel vanishing as a Jewish state. Since they persist in "fighting" school buses and restaurants what option does Israel have?
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Originally Posted by richrf
The WWII genocide of 55 million people was the defining moment for German Nazism. Actions define a person and a culture. In no way did the genocide define my parents. What defined them was their survival and the disgust they shared for Jewish organizations that profit from the deaths of millions. That pretty much sums up the extent that these Jewish organizations have anything to do with genocide - they collect money. They certainly do nothing to prevent it.
Why is one the defining event for Jewry as a whole and the other only for German Nazism? And are you saying we should forget the Shoah?
It is not the Jews' fault that the "Palestinians" (actually Arabs resident in part of the former Ottoman Empire) rebuffed every peace opportunity short of Israel vanishing as a Jewish state. Since they persist in "fighting" school buses and restaurants what option does Israel have?
Why is one the defining event for Jewry as a whole and the other only for German Nazism? And are you saying we should forget the Shoah?
I say remember the cause of WWII and almost all wars associated with genocide - Lebensraum.
I'm glad I read your posts on an empty stomach. The factis that the countries that could do something effectual did not. And the French often did turn Jews in. In general the world's history of hatred of Jews, stretching back several millennia, was on full display. There were scattered bright spots to be sure as you pointed out. But not enough. Totally not enough.
The French who turned in Jews also turned in their own neighbours for anything from suspicions of black marketeering to assisting Jews in hiding. Collaborators turned in my grandfather, who was sent to Dachau. They shot his teenage sons along with other young men from our village. They shot 13 in the village next to ours. And everywhere young men and boys were sent away for slave labour.
Just how much more do you think ordinary people could have done?
Funny thing though.... Every time I tell someone that my grandfather and his brothers were sent to Dachau their response is to say 'I didn't know you were Jewish'. People who have known me for decades are shocked because 'only Jews were sent to concentration camps'. Of course, I'm a Breton Catholic.
How much did the USA do? Americans weren't under any threat.
I wonder if the idea that Jews' suffering far outweighed the suffering of other groups is mostly an American thing. Because there's a large influential American Jewish population and many people over here have limited knowledge of Europe. For example, I've never met any Gypsies and knew almost nothing about other countries accepting Jewish refugees during the war. Just from a logistical standpoint (distance and naval warfare), it was hard to get Jews across the ocean in WWII.
You are right. It is mostly an American thing.
WW2 began on 1 September of 1939. The US didn't get involved until after Pearl Harbor, December of 1941. During those two years -- two years, mind you -- the US could have brought loads of Jews from Europe to safety.
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A year later, after the events of Kristallnacht, in which more than 15,000 Jews were expelled from Germany to concentration camps by boxcar, a survey conducted by the American Institute of Public Opinion found that more than 60% of Americans were opposed to accepting Jewish refugee children, who were the most in need of asylum.
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Laura Delano, cousin to FDR, was quoted as saying “Twenty thousand charming children would all too soon grow into 20,000 ugly adults,†when asked about allowing Jewish children to seek refuge in America. Yet, a year later, America passed legislation to accept refugees from England while leaving Jewish refugees to the mercy of the Nazi regime.
Yet the UK, a far poorer country than the US, and one that knew it would be bombed and possibly invaded by the Germans took in over 10,000 Jewish children from the continent, children who were taken in by British gentiles. The Kindertransport trains only stopped when the war began.
Americans have been failed by their system of education. This will help:
I say remember the cause of WWII and almost all wars associated with genocide - Lebensraum.
It was a catchy slogan. I'm not sure it had much if anything to do with why the Nazis massacred millions in the homeland. Germany might have wanted some material resources, but no way was the country headed to severe overcrowding and depletion of natural resources (unlike, perhaps, Israel). Hitler really did want to eliminate the Jews (a small percentage of Germany's population), which hence underlines the unusualness of "The Holocaust." It was, as far as I know, the largest-scale, most 'pure' genocide ever.
Last edited by goodheathen; 06-18-2016 at 12:02 PM..
It was a catchy slogan. I'm not sure it had much if anything to do with why the Nazis massacred millions in the homeland. Germany might have wanted some material resources, but no way was the country headed to severe overcrowding and depletion of natural resources (unlike, perhaps, Israel). Hitler really did want to eliminate the Jews (a small percentage of Germany's population), which hence underlines the unusualness of "The Holocaust." It was, as far as I know, the largest-scale, most 'pure' genocide ever.
Germany was a basket case prior to the beginning of WWII, totally mired in debt from their military and social programs. While they still had access to money from multinational corporations and certain banks (several U.S. based) the system was failing and the Nazi regime new full will they needed access to hard currency, commodity resources, ports, and farm land which was plentiful in the countries and people they targeted.
Almost every large scale conflict since recorded history had at its core the desire for wealth and people subjugation and/or annihilation in order to gain control of the wealth.
As a matter of history, WWII genocide was over 55 million people it one counted the 35 million Russians and 10 million Chinese who died at the hands of the Nazis and Japanese. While on the short term the Nazi probably did not know how to kill off the entire Russian population but they did wantonly kill millions upon millions including the millions who died during the siege of Leningrad. The destruction heaped upon Russia is unimaginable.
Okay, that makes more sense. Lebensraum wasn't actually about living space, though. That said, German people of course welcomed the chance to take over big plots of land.
I don't think there was a plan to kill millions of Russians and therefore I won't say there was a Russian genocide. I don't know enough about the Japanese brutality toward the Chinese to say whether extermination was a goal. I hope everyone agrees that the Nazis wanted to eliminate the Jews regardless of resources they possessed.
Okay, that makes more sense. Lebensraum wasn't actually about living space, though. That said, German people of course welcomed the chance to take over big plots of land.
I don't think there was a plan to kill millions of Russians and therefore I won't say there was a Russian genocide. I don't know enough about the Japanese brutality toward the Chinese to say whether extermination was a goal. I hope everyone agrees that the Nazis wanted to eliminate the Jews regardless of resources they possessed.
The Nazis early on had already begun resettling Germans into occupied territories.
Generalplan Ost was the name for massive extermination within Eastern Europe and Lebensraum. Many ethic groups were targeted and on their way to extinction. However, Russia's population prohibited a quick annihilation.
The defining event for Jewry is their complicity in the destruction of the Palestinian population.
I dislike having to repeat myself. But the deliberate "destruction" of the "Palestinian" people is a canard. Largely it was the result of two non-deliberate factors: 1) what inevitably happens when a primitive culture meets an advanced one; and 2) the failure to accept any peace offering. In fact many of the Palestinians came in to work at enterprises created by the Zionist settlers They rejected political and economic offerings made to secure a peaceful resolution of their problems. Pre-independence articles in newspapers read the same way as modern ones. Constant formulas, constant rejections, and constant violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf
The WWII genocide of 55 million people was the defining moment for German Nazism. Actions define a person and a culture. In no way did the genocide define my parents. What defined them was their survival and the disgust they shared for Jewish organizations that profit from the deaths of millions. That pretty much sums up the extent that these Jewish organizations have anything to do with genocide - they collect money. They certainly do nothing to prevent it.
I am not saying your parents did anything wrong. But if more Germans had refused to cooperate perhaps the Holocaust would have been prevented or ameliorated.
I dislike having to repeat myself. But the deliberate "destruction" of the "Palestinian" people is a canard. Largely it was the result of two non-deliberate factors: 1) what inevitably happens when a primitive culture meets an advanced one; and 2) the failure to accept any peace offering. In fact many of the Palestinians came in to work at enterprises created by the Zionist settlers They rejected political and economic offerings made to secure a peaceful resolution of their problems. Pre-independence articles in newspapers read the same way as modern ones. Constant formulas, constant rejections, and constant violence.
I am not saying your parents did anything wrong. But if more Germans had refused to cooperate perhaps the Holocaust would have been prevented or ameliorated.
Lebensraum
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