Quote:
Originally Posted by jamies
All this discord and rhetoric the past year or so regarding civil and gun rights and Obama hate, and gay hate, Democrats vs Republicans, and everyone in the country seemingly hating everyone else, etc., got me to thinking.
When the Founding Fathers made up the Constitution and Bill of Rights and all the other founding documents, they forgot to set up a way to disband the arrangement if or when things didn't work out. Apparently the only way to reset the clock or to dissolve the government and start over is by armed insurrection. Which is of course illegal.
Or did I miss something? There doesn't seem to be any system in place whereby Congress could just agree that we can't any of us agree, on anything, and that we should all just go our separate ways, and let the states form smaller unions or remain independent nations, like Europe. (Though we all see how well that works.)
Anyway - what do you all think? Should there be some way to peacefully dissolve the United States and allocated federal assets equally between the states? Or do we wait until groups start localized insurrection like up in Oregon, followed by widespread civil upheaval with corresponding death, destruction and the probabilities of generations of poverty? Or do we just fiddle a *** ("j-ig" is a banned word? LOL) until the national debt causes a governmental failure and anarchy?
|
Article V of the US Constitution:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, o
n the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.
So the Founding Fathers DID foresee a time when things would get out of hand but Congress would be useless.
Originally, they were only going to have Congress be able to amend the Constitution but Delegate George Mason said that if things got out of hand and Congress WERE the problem, there would be no way, save insurrection, to change things. Hence, there had to be another way. Thus he suggested the state convention process. The idea was passed unanimously at the Constitutional Convention.
As for wondering if such a convention was ever done: obviously not. The closest we came was the 17th Amendment, which WOULD have been done by the states themselves (they were only a state or two short), but the Senate got the 2/3 first to send it out for ratification.
However, the earliest convention call was by Virginia. It was promised at the Constitutional Convention that there would be a Bill of Rights added later. That was the ONLY way the Constitution was passed, as it wouldn't have been otherwise. Virginia actually filed an application for an Article V convention to propose Bill of Rights amendments. I think another state or two also joined in. They were sending a message to Congress: propose the Bill of Rights like you promised or else we'll do it ourselves.
Another notable one was around the time of the Civil War. Some states saw trouble coming and started a convention to deal with the issue of the expansion of slavery, which was a big issue and likely to divide the country. I believe even Abraham Lincoln backed this. However, the convention, after getting some states, foolishly sent the issue to Congress (they didn't have the 2/3) and Congress was too divided to act, thus the Civil War broke out.
Now, I've already told you about the attempt to get the 17th Amendment passed via a Convention. I know that also Eisenhower endorsed a Convention.
When the Senate, by a slim margin, failed to pass the Balanced Budget Amendment, he suggested that the states call a Convention and do it themselves. Indeed, by now, we do have states numbering in the 20's with a call for a Balanced Budget Convention. One fear though, is that the convention calling language isn't similar enough for Congress to count them as the same. For instance, if one convention call asked for a balanced budget only and another asked for balanced budget and a limit on taxing too, they couldn't go together.
In 2014, they started a convention process to limit the power and jurisdiction of the federal government, term limits for federal officials, and fiscal restraints. They got Florida, Georgia, and Alaska. Last year, they got Alabama, got close in other states but fell short and some states still have active resolutions.
The most recent news on this came from Texas when Governor Abbot endorsed the process:
Texas Governor Greg Abbott Endorses Mark Levin's Convention of States - Breitbart
I disagree with some of Abbot's Amendments as I think his 2/3 threshold is too high. I have my own ones:
Entitlement, Federal Pension, Federal Reserve Reform Amendment, and Bureaucracy Ending Amendment and to Check Congress, Executive Orders, and Federal Courts(28th Amendment)
Section 1.
All entitlement programs are hereby transferred to state control. This includes social security and others. All that people pay into shall now have their funds managed by a third party entity rather than any governmental agency. The federal government shall not be able to spend the savings accounts of its citizens.
Section 2.
All matters that may go across state lines shall be managed by an interstate committee, appointed by the states themselves. The member amounts may vary as necessary but each state shall have to reach agreement in matters of disputes between states.
Section 3.
Effective upon ratification, all new federal employees shall pay no less than 50% of their own pensions and other pay into program.
Section 4.
The heads of the Federal Reserve shall now be appointed by the several States and may be removed from office for bad behavior.
Section 5.
All federal departments shall sunset within six months of the ratification of this amendment unless they are individually voted to continue by legislatures of 3/5 of the several States. All departments made after the ratification of this amendment shall sunset every three years unless they are voted to continue by the legislatures of 3/5 of the several States. When they sunset, all their regulations shall be automatically repealed and defunded and the weapons that every dissolved bureaucracy has shall be given over to the United States military for use.
Section 6.
Upon the request of 3/5 of the legislatures of the several states, a Congressional law, executive order, or federal decision may be overturned. Also, by a vote of the majority of both Houses of Congress and a signature of the President, a federal court decision may also be overturned (though this can be undone by 3/5 of the legislatures of the several States.)
Section 7.
Upon the vote of 3/5 of the Supreme Courts of the several states, a federal court decision shall be overturned. Upon the vote of 3/5 of the Supreme Courts of the several States, a Congressional bill shall be overturned.
An Amendment to Amend the Treaty Clause and Protect National Sovereignty and Security as well As State and Local Police Forces and to Restore the 4th Amendment (29th Amendment)
Section 1.
The Treaty clause is hereby amended to require 3/5 of Senators rather than 2/3 of Senators present.
Section 2.
After a treaty is put out, the treaty can be repealed by 3/5 of the state legislators voting to nullify it within 18 months, after which, they cannot nullify it.
Section 3.
The details of the treaty, in full, SHALL be presented to the legislatures of the several states, no later than a week after 2/3 of the Senators present have voted to approve it. The treaty shall not go into effect unless 3/5 of the States have no blocked it within the required time. Shall the federal government neglect to provide states info or have hidden parts of the treaty, the treaty shall be considered null and void. The same shall hold true if the President and/or other members of the executive branch similarly withhold such information from the Senate or without it until after the Senate ratifies it.
Section 4.
International agreements or any deal with a group outside the nation that obliges the United States to abide by any conditions shall be considered a treaty and must go through the ratification process proscribed as such.
Section 5.
Shall the President or other members or the executive branch breach Section 4., he/she/they shall be instantly dismissed for bad behavior.
Section 6.
The state and local police forces shall NOT be subject to federal oversight and the control of the National Guard for each state shall rest with the governor. The right of any state to police itself shall NOT be infringed unless in a state of open rebellion or upon the concurrence of a majority of the several States.
Section 7.
If the federal government shall refuse to secure the border of a state from invasion by illegal aliens or shall fail in its duty to protect the people from invasion, either foreign or domestic, the state may act even without the approval of the federal government.
Section 8.
The 4th Amendment is hereby applied to all technologies, current and future. The federal government shall not contract 3rd party companies to harvest data on its citizens to try and get around this provision The federal government may not hand out information about individuals either directly or through a third party to another party unless it is part of a criminal investigation or similar matter. State governments are hereby given power to see that this Amendment is enforced within their jurisdiction.
Section 9.
No federal officeholder may accept donations from any foreign group or leader.
An Amendment to Limit the Jurisdiction of the Federal Courts, Have the States Control Federal Appointments, Limit Congressional Bills, Limit the Power of the President, and to Allow States to Investigate the Federal Government (30th Amendment)
Section 1.
All appointments for executive or judicial offices shall be confirmed by 3/5 of the several States instead of 2/3 of the Senate. Shall 10 successive appointments for the above fail, the states shall nominate their own person for the position and confirmation shall be by 3/5 of the several States and this shall keep applying for each new person till a person is chosen.
Section 2.
Upon the request of 10 states, members, appointed by 10 more random states, shall begin into the federal government. They shall have 59 members in total on the committee. Decisions shall be done by the majority and shall be final except in the case of section 2. The decision in can be overridden by 30 or more states. Nobody shall serve on this committee for more than four years.
Section 3.
In all the cases in Article 2 where Congress can limit the appellate jurisdiction under Article 2, 3/5 of the states can also limit it, and such limitation shall not be overridden by Congress or any other federal agency. 3/5 of the states may dissolve a lower federal court and 3/5 of the states can set the jurisdiction of a lower federal court that again, such limitations shall not be overridden by Congress or any other federal agency.
Section 4.
By the vote of 3/5 of the states within 180 days of a veto, the States may override a Presidential veto. By a vote of 3/5 of both Houses of Congress within 180 days of the veto, Congress may override a Presidential veto. By a vote of 3/5 of the states, the President may be removed from office. The President shall not be allowed to exercise line item vetoes. The President may not pardon anyone within his or her administration or that had been part of his/her administration. Upon the vote of 3/5 vote of both Houses of Congress or upon the vote of 3/5 of the legislatures of the several states, a Presidential Pardon may be overturned. Neither the President nor any other member of the executive may set up courts or tribunals that only answer to the executive branch for their authority or decision making.
Section 5.
No Congressional bill shall exceed 1000 pages. Congress shall make no law, nor shall any regulation be enforced that exempts any elected or appointed official, nor any employee, contractor, staffer, intern, or volunteer of any branch of the government from the restrictions binding upon the people. All bills must have a subject matter header that shall not exceed 10 pages that shall determine the subject of each bill. Nothing in the bill may deviate from what is in this section. All Congressional bills must be available for public viewing by the general public at least thirty days between the time the bill is fully engrossed and when it is taken up for a vote.
Section 6.
All spending measures must be passed by Congress as standalone bills and shall require renewal every year. Everything that is not passed shall be automatically defunded.
Congressional Term Limit and Lobbying Ban Amendment and Gerrymandering Elimination Amendment and Pay and Benefits Limitation Amendment and Other Term Limits (31st Amendment)
Section 1.
The term of the Senate is reduced from six years to two years.
Section 2.
No member of Congress may serve more than eight years in total, either exclusively in one chamber or in a combination of both.
Section 3.
No member of the federal government or their staffers may be lobbyists five years before their service, during their service, or for five years thereafter.
Section 4.
Members who have served more than eight years but are midterm after the passage of the amendment can serve the rest of their term but must leave upon completion of their term.
Section 5.
Immediately upon ratification, all pay and benefits for a Congressman shall be determined by the state that they represent and paid for out of the treasury of said state.
Section 6.
Congress may not draw up its own districts nor may it contract an agency to do so but the districts shall be drawn up by a third party chosen by a majority of the several states.
Section 7.
For all other federal office holders other than the Congress and the federal courts, the maximum amount of time one may hold the office shall be 20 years. All members in office over 20 years, other than the aforementioned ones, shall leave immediately.
Federal Court Term Limit Amendment (32nd Amendment)
Section 1.
No person may serve as Chief Justice or Associate Justice of the Supreme Court for more than a combined total of twelve years.
Section 2.
Immediately upon ratification of this Amendment, Congress will organize the justices of as equally as possible into three classes, with the justices assigned to each class in reverse seniority order, with the most senior justices in the earliest class. The terms of office for the justices in the First Class will expire at the end of the fourth Year following the ratification of this Amendment, the terms for the justices in the Second Class will expire at the end of the eighth year, the terms for the justices in the Third Class shall expire at the end of the twelfth year, so that one-third of the justices shall be chosen every fourth year.
Section 3.
When a vacancy occurs in the Supreme Court, the President shall nominate a new justice who, with the approval of a 3/5 of the several States, shall serve the remainder of the unexpired term. Justices who fill a vacancy for longer than half of an unexpired term may not be renominated to a full term.
Section 4.
All lower federal courts shall also have term limits of 12 years at most and shall have the same rules on 1-3 as the Supreme Court.
Section 5.
All members of any federal court must be U.S. born and must be at least 30 years of age.
An Amendment to End Cronyism, End Concurrent Jurisdiction, Restore the Commerce Clause, and Restore Balance of Powers (33rd Amendment)
Section 1.
The Commerce Clause shall only allow Congress, and Congress only, to regulate shipping between states.
Section 2.
The Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act and all similar measures are hereby extended to all federal offices and appointments and shall bear the force of constitutional law. Enforcement shall be by the states when said jobs or service positions are within the jurisdiction of a state and by Congress within a federal jurisdiction and shall be done by appropriate legislation by both. Legislation by Congress here is still subject to any countermand of the states.
Section 3.
The federal government shall have no jurisdiction to spend money or issue a law in any state in any way that could reasonably be done by the government of said state without the federal government acting.
Section 4.
No branch of the federal government may hold legislative, judicial, or executive power concurrently nor shall any branch hold more than its proscribed powers. In addition, no branch may delegate its authority to another branch.
16th Amendment Repeal Amendment (34th Amendment)
Section 1.
This 16th Amendment is hereby repealed.
Section 2.
There shall not be any federal estate tax or federal internet tax
17th Amendment Repeal Amendment (35th Amendment)
Section 1.
The 17th Amendment is hereby repealed.
Section 2.
The state legislators shall pick two pools of Senators.
Section 3.
The city councils of the state shall vote on the members picked from the pool. The two candidates who get the most votes, with each city council collectively getting one vote, shall be the winners.
Section 4.
In the event that a Senator is not picked within six months, the governor may appoint a temporary one until such time as one is picked.
Section 5.
Senators already in before this Amendment passes shall serve the rest of their term.
Also, I don't believe November will change much. If anything, it could make it worse.
Also, one of our most disastrous amendments was the 17th. It allowed direct election, hence removing the influence of the states over the Senate. Also, by NOT reducing the Senate terms to 2, they now had a directly elected branch that now had 6 years to screw around before being held accountable again. Hence, guess who they start to listen to: that's right, the lobbyists! Also, as it's not even through an electoral college like the President, basically Chicago picks the Senators for Illinois, Detroit picks the Senators for Michigan, and so on. Also, as the now less accountable Senate got to be picked by direct election but had 6 years to mess around, this gave FDR the power to threaten to pack the court and create all his bureaucracies. Now the courts were swinging to the Left and the Administrative State was born. Also, as appointees are picked by the Senate, they can pick clowns and not have to pay the piper for 6 years. Same thing for treaties and other things. With the rise of the Department of Education, students started getting brainwashed by DC.
Now things are dire with the sinister alliance between Big Business, Big Government, and, sadly, Big Labor.
BTW, with the federal government having less power after a Convention, then the states would have more control, hence the blue states could do what they wanted and the red states could do what they wanted. And we wouldn't have to disband the Union. Also, the amendments I suggested above WOULD restore the checks and balances. If it was anything that the Founders did wrong, it was that the Founders didn't outright put in something that would allow a Countermand or something by the states (they did have the states controlling the Senate at the time after all) and also they put in the Article V convention as a Break Glass in Case of Emergency thing.
BTW, go to
www.conventionofstates.com and
www.cosaction.com to find out more about the process Abbot was talking about.
And you can also watch these videos here too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHd1...Yw9c1uxndE-rlp
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
