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Do you lock your doors at night? Why? Do you lock your car when you go to the store? Why?
Yes.
Would you break into someone's house if it wasn't locked?
Would you steal someone's car if it wasn't locked?
And how does a woman invite a man to rape her? Just by dressing provocatively? Is she flirting with random dudes? Sitting on their laps? Grinding on their crotches? Or is she just standing on the street trying to catch a cab or a bus or just walking home? Does she still deserve to get raped despite the fact she is not engaging in any sexually provocative behavior?
There is an old story, about King David (or you can make it any wise ruler).
King held his court day.
Here comes a woman and says - King, man such and such raped me. Punish him.
King orders guards to bring man to his court.
Man is brought in and King asks him:
Do you know this woman?
Yes, I do.
Did you rape her?
No, we had intercourse but it was with her consent.
King turns to the woman and asks:
Will you confirm that this man indeed raped you?
Yes, insists woman.
King orders his servant to bring a needle and a thread. Then, King holds needle between his thumb and index fingers, eye up, hands thread to the woman and tells her to thread the needle.
Woman tries to do so, but every time thread gets close to the needle eye, King will turn it a little bit so she misses.
After several attempts, woman loses her patience and says Your Majesty, will you please hold that needle steady?
To what King says: Woman, unless you held yourself steady, that man could have not threaded you either.
Dismissed.
Just an old story.
Just like you can't rape a woman wearing tight jeans because it's impossible to get those jeans off, right?
This is sick and you should be banned for even posting it. We all know what you're alluding too.
Because you automatically put yourself into Superior Moral Mode when you do it.
As far as rape is concerned, a woman should be able to get hammered drunk, pass out in public stark naked, and still not be raped.
Just like your average guy could.
But women are expected to look after not only their Own Moral Code, also the Mens around them (see: do not pass out naked in public, wear short skirts, etc).
Exactly.
Women are always taught- from the time they are little girls - don't do this, don't wear this, don't act like this, don't go places alone, don't take anything from a man you don't know (including a drink when they reach that age), etc.
But I ask the men on here: Were you EVER taught by the adults in your life, especially other men, about consent, about never touching a woman without her permission, about protecting a woman you see in a dangerous situation, about never taking advantage of a woman who might be drunk/asleep/drugged/ill? Were you ever explicitly taught do not ever touch a woman sexually who has not given you clear, undeniable, enthusiastic permission to do so?
Rape prevention BEGINS with changing the male culture.
Women are always taught- from the time they are little girls - don't do this, don't wear this, don't act like this, don't go places alone, don't take anything from a man you don't know (including a drink when they reach that age), etc.
But I ask the men on here: Were you EVER taught by the adults in your life, especially other men, about consent, about never touching a woman without her permission, about protecting a woman you see in a dangerous situation, about never taking advantage of a woman who might be drunk/asleep/drugged/ill? Were you ever explicitly taught do not ever touch a woman sexually who has not given you clear, undeniable, enthusiastic permission to do so?
Actually, yes, I was.
But I'm old school.
I think there is a problem, however, with the way sexuality has been socialized for both genders in America over the last generation.
And women today are not particularly taught "don't do this, don't wear this, don't act like this, don't go places alone, don't take anything from a man you don't know (including a drink when they reach that age), etc." Rather, they're taught they can (or at least should be) be just as cavalier as men, and the boys pick up as well that girls can be just as cavalier as boys. Everyone is being taught to be loose. Remember, kids learn from all sources, not just the ones intended at one time or another.
Would you break into someone's house if it wasn't locked?
Would you steal someone's car if it wasn't locked?
And how does a woman invite a man to rape her? Just by dressing provocatively? Is she flirting with random dudes? Sitting on their laps? Grinding on their crotches? Or is she just standing on the street trying to catch a cab or a bus or just walking home? Does she still deserve to get raped despite the fact she is not engaging in any sexually provocative behavior?
I would not rob someone because I am not a criminal. But I know that if I do not take precautions to protect myself, I am more likely to get robbed by a criminal. Because, be assured, criminals exist. And no way on this earth will I ever teach my children to NOT lock their doors because that's "victim blaming". That's ridiculous. I will teach them precautions to take to keep them safe. Sometimes precautions aren't enough, and people get robbed, or raped, anyway. But you make it a little less likely by taking precautions.
How does a woman invite a man to rape her? Well, as I understand it, most rape is date rape. Most rape is done by a guy who the girl knows, they go on a date, maybe have something to drink, and the girl goes upstairs with the guy either not thinking, or thinking it won't go very far, or thinking she wants it to go somewhere and then changes her mind. The guy either gets no signals, mixed signals, or gets overcome by the heat of the moment and ignores the signals. So, I think if you want to statistically lessen your chances of getting raped, then don't put yourself in this position, until you are far enough in the relationship that you are absolutely sure that you are wanting to have sex with this person.
I mean, it's pretty logical, right?
And NO WHERE did I ever say she deserved to get raped. YOU said that. No one deserves to get raped. But all girls and women everywhere deserve to receive an appropriate education on how to lessen their chances of getting raped, and how to protect themselves. And if you deny them that education for the sake of being politically correct, then YOU are causing harm.
No one deserves to get hit by a tornado. But gosh darn it you still teach everyone to get underground or away from windows, or get out of the car and into a ditch. You don't tell people "it's okay, just stand there, cause if the tornado kills you it's NOT YOUR FAULT". That's just patently stupid.
Women are always taught- from the time they are little girls - don't do this, don't wear this, don't act like this, don't go places alone, don't take anything from a man you don't know (including a drink when they reach that age), etc.
But I ask the men on here: Were you EVER taught by the adults in your life, especially other men, about consent, about never touching a woman without her permission, about protecting a woman you see in a dangerous situation, about never taking advantage of a woman who might be drunk/asleep/drugged/ill? Were you ever explicitly taught do not ever touch a woman sexually who has not given you clear, undeniable, enthusiastic permission to do so?
Rape prevention BEGINS with changing the male culture.
Yes, all the MEN I know we're absolutely taught this. If you are hanging around with guys who were not, maybe you should find a new crowd. Because absolutely MEN are taught this.
Lecturing a person who is living through the consequences of rape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu
For the rape victim, yes.
But it is not enough if you want to educate women about how to reduce the chance of getting raped. The example has been used of Bill Cosby meeting a woman and inviting her to his room for drink and then he rapes her. Is she the victim of rape. No question about it. And in no way should she have been.
But that means not engaging in risky behavior in the real world....even though in some ideal world a woman "should" be safe in such a situation.
If the aspect of risky behavior is brushed out of the way over and over again, then women will not be as on guard as they should be. Saying that no one should be raped regardless of this or that circumstance is pie-in-the-sky stuff and not very helpful to women in the real world.
A strange male does not invite women to his room "for a drink." There are bars and lounges for that. Every mentally capable female should know that she is there for sex, and this guy is a stranger with who knows what mental wiring or past, and there is no knowing his reaction to a "No" once in the hotel room.
Women should be teaching women, in the real world you do not ever do this...because once you are in that room the guy may not give a fart about the "shoulds" of an ideal world.
Yes, for the woman who has taken this risk and gotten raped, to throw it in her face would be an additional punishment she doesn't need. The rape victim is not going to ever make this mistake again. But if there is going to be such a thing as educating women to help themselves lessen the chances of getting raped, then it has to include: "A strange man does not invite you to his hotel room for "a drink." You are there to have sex. You are putting yourself at an elevated risk of getting raped if you take up such an invitation.
It's not about blaming women. It's living with the real life fact that some men do not care about the "shoulds." And some behaviors increase the risk of running afoul of these types.
Totally. But women ought not to be naively counting on the shoulds of an ideal world to protect them. And this means stressing that in our real world certain decisions and situations ought not to be risked.
I agree with you, but thinking women "should know better" so she doesn't get raped is the same line of thinking that the world "should be better" so women should be able to dress how ever they want. We don't live in a world of "shoulds."
At least you recognize that education only reduces the chances of rape. It doesn't remove it completely.
But I will stop there so you don't think I am disagreeing with you. We agree more than we disagree.
The issue is we make it so it is in some cases "equal" blame. Two women walk into a bar, get equally drunk and grinded on two different guys. One girl gets home fine, the other is raped. No much different about them other than one is raped, one isn't. We blamed the one who was raped for drinking, grinding on a guy, etc. Despite the fact another woman did but somehow didn't. I'm sure there was more than one drunk under-aged girl who snuck out or lied to their parents at the Stubenville party where one 15 year old got raped. Where's their blame?
Yes, all the MEN I know we're absolutely taught this. If you are hanging around with guys who were not, maybe you should find a new crowd. Because absolutely MEN are taught this.
You say that, but then you contradict yourself by saying this:
pkab5: "How does a woman invite a man to rape her? Well, as I understand it, most rape is date rape. Most rape is done by a guy who the girl knows, they go on a date, maybe have something to drink, and the girl goes upstairs with the guy either not thinking, or thinking it won't go very far, or thinking she wants it to go somewhere and then changes her mind. The guy either gets no signals, mixed signals, or gets overcome by the heat of the moment and ignores the signals. So, I think if you want to statistically lessen your chances of getting raped, then don't put yourself in this position, until you are far enough in the relationship that you are absolutely sure that you are wanting to have sex with this person."
So if men are TAUGHT to never touch a woman sexually without their explicit, clear, enthusiastic consent, then there are NO mixed signal, there is no "invitation" because she has not said "Yes please have sex with me."
You are victim blaming yourself with your statements above giving scenarios where a woman invites a man to rape her. There is no such thing. A man rapes a woman because a man chooses to rape a woman. That makes him a rapist. End of story.
Furthermore, your scenario is ridiculous. What you are referring to as "date rape" is actually known as acquaintance rape, because the rapist is someone known to the victim but not necessarily someone she has dated/is dating. It can be a neighbor, a friend, a class mate, a co-worker, OR someone the victim has dated or is dating. Women aren't just willy-nilly going alone to men's houses, drinking, going into their bedrooms, and then having second thoughts. But even if they were, and let me be very clear when I say this, even if they were that is still no excuse for rape and it is still the fault of the rapist for choosing to rape. That is the law, that is the morality, that is the way it works. Rapists cause rape.
People want to lecture women and tell them everything they've done wrong, but you know what? When women treat every man as a potential rapist and protect themselves accordingly they are called prudes and feminazis, the MRA dolts claim that the feminists have warped their minds and are demonizing men, etc. ad infinitum.
So you folks have to pick - which way do you want it? Women treat every male as a potential rapist and therefore do not engage in typical dating or social behavior ever until the man has pledged absolute fidelity to her and her alone, or, gee, what could be the other choice....hmmm... oh yeah, men stop raping women.
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