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It doesn't matter. We've been through this over and over. This is all irrevelant. You do also realize that we operate in a society in which mob rule is kept in check. Rarely do supreme court decisions regarding civil rights for example are left to public opinion. You only need to show that even a small minority's freedoms have been violated in order to call to attention a wrong.
A business proprieter does not have to prove viability in order to start a business. They should have the right to start a business on their own decision. They shouldn't have government dictate what services they decide to offer to their customers. It is a very simply concept that you seem to have a difficult time grasping. A business who wants to operate smoke free because it has little related to their services should be allowed to operate smoke free. A business who wants to operate with a smoking environment because it is a part of the services they wish to offer shoudl be allowed to operate allowing smoking on their premises.
Good/bad business decision nor the popularity of a decision has little to do with the topic at hand. Business owners should have the right to decide not the public.
Did you read the study? It is a study that doesn't focus on businesses that rely on smoking as a core service offered... smoking bar, cigar bars, etc...
I've said this a million times already, I support ban on smoking in most public areas such as restuarants but for businesses that decide that tobacco products are core to their offerings were adversly impacted (see the link of businesses already listed).
If any of the businesses on your list actually went out of business due to smoking bans they could have survived if they changed their business plans to court non-smokers. They went out of business because management could not handle it. Better managers had bars that survived and thrived.
A bar is a business. If it is poorly managed it will fail - smoking ban or not.
If any of the businesses on your list actually went out of business due to smoking bans they could have survived if they changed their business plans to court non-smokers. They went out of business because management could not handle it. Better managers had bars that survived and thrived.
A bar is a business. If it is poorly managed it will fail - smoking ban or not.
We've been through this before.. repeating it doesn't make it any more relevant.. The list includes establishments that have operated for decades successfuly prior to the ban.
If smoking on premises is core to your offerings, how is a change in management suppose to rectify the situation?
What exactly do you want?
Have you owned/operated a business?
As already said, I am ok with banning smoking in most indoor public establishments. YOu seem to keep arguing a point that I am in agreement with. However, it is the other establishments that choose to offer tobacco as a service that you seem to ignore...
We've been through this before.. repeating it doesn't make it any more relevant.. The list includes establishments that have operated for decades successfuly prior to the ban.
If smoking on premises is core to your offerings, how is a change in management suppose to rectify the situation?
What exactly do you want?
Have you owned/operated a business?
As already said, I am ok with banning smoking in most indoor public establishments. YOu seem to keep arguing a point that I am in agreement with. However, it is the other establishments that choose to offer tobacco as a service that you seem to ignore...
It's not that hard to understand. If you can no longer allow smoking, you market to non-smokers.
First you clean the premises to get rid of the stink.
It's not what I want; it is your inability to see that the bar business has changed post smoking ban. Bars are going non-smoking even if they could continue to allow smoking, because it is good business.
Looks like your best bet is a cigar store where smoking is allowed or a private club for smokers. If your community has banned smoking in bars, the probability is that the ban will stay in place. Smoky taverns are gone and not coming back.
I have had my own business and currently manage one for my husband, neither in the hospitality sector. I have watched restaurants come and go here, and the common theme is that management gets sloppy and quality of food and service declines. Customers stop going back.
It's not what I want; it is your inability to see that the bar business has changed post smoking ban. Bars are going non-smoking even if they could continue to allow smoking, because it is good business.
Looks like your best bet is a cigar store where smoking is allowed or a private club for smokers. If your community has banned smoking in bars, the probability is that the ban will stay in place. Smoky taverns are gone and not coming back.
I have had my own business and currently manage one for my husband, neither in the hospitality sector. I have watched restaurants come and go here, and the common theme is that management gets sloppy and quality of food and service declines. Customers stop going back.
This is not about sloppy and quality of service with lack of management. This is like blaming a burger joint for closing because burgers are suddenly outlawed. The links you provide are revelant to a bar whose core business is built only on the sale of alcohol... they are irrevelant. THe customers stopped going to these establishments because a ban prevents them from seeking the service they want. Not because services were subpar.
I didn't ask how a bar should rectify the situation. I asked if a bar whose core business is built on smoking is suppose to rectify the situation. Two different things.
Then you are suggesting that businesses should operate as a private club to circumvent the law....
You are not making sense.
You are ok with government dictating other people's businesses as long as it doesn't impact your own? Hypocritical.
I can understand if the intent was to prevent smoking from bothering non smokers but your intent is simply to tell others how to live and do business.
: I asked if a bar whose core business is built on smoking is suppose to rectify the situation. Two different things.
I have told you repeatedly. If that bar owner wants to stay open he has to forget about being "built on smoking" and do something different.
Quote:
Then you are suggesting that businesses should operate as a private club to circumvent the law...
Not if the private club is in compliance with the law. In many areas they are.
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You are not making sense.
You are ok with government dictating other people's businesses as long as it doesn't impact your own? Hypocritical.
I can understand if the intent was to prevent smoking from bothering non smokers but your intent is simply to tell others how to live and do business.
At some point you are going to have to make peace with the idea that smoke filled pubs are vanishing even in areas where smoke filled pubs are still legal. They are no longer a good business model, not when four adults out of five do not smoke.
The list of bars that went out of business that you posted earlier is ancient, not having been updated since 2004, by the way. Wonder how many new ones have taken their places.
In Glasgow weve gone all Parisian from the no smoking ban in pubs hahaha hits laughable , people sitting outside with the traffic whizzing past, and usually wet or cold.... think Id rather abstain as put myself through this torture for a fly puff... saw one women sitting on her own outside a pub in Argyle st.. with her brolly up smoking.. or the others cowered in a wee crowd shivering and all for a nicotine hit....
I have told you repeatedly. If that bar owner wants to stay open he has to forget about being "built on smoking" and do something different.
Why should he.... shouldn't the bar owner have the right to make decisions for his business? By suggesting that a private club as a circumvention of the smoking ban you are revealing that the premise of your original posts concerning health risks is a farce and the laws banning it in ALL indoor areas is encroaching on people's freedom to choose.
The list is ancient??? Silly.. the ban went into effect in 2006. Of course its not a growing recently updated list. The damage has been done.
At some point you'll have to come to terms with dealing with second hand smoke at the doorways and as you walk by. A side-effect of the very laws that removed smoking areas for these people.
With the increasing research and studies over the years that prove that it has negative health effects, why has our society as a whole, not adopted the mindset that it should be considered as such?
I don't smoke but it has nothing to do with health why people don't like it. CVS played the game by recently stopping the sales of cigarettes but they continue to sell isles of candy, snacks, sodas, cookies etc...
It has nothing to do with health it has to do with personal agendas. Certain people of society don't like smokers so they band together to ban smoking and cig sales. They use health as the cover up to their agenda.
I don't see bans on bacon or butter or candy sweets etc... because to die from heart disease or diabetes is ok to these hypocrites.
Again i don't smoke i just hate people who take rights and choices away from people simply because they don't personally like it.
Thousands of people die every day in car accidents maybe we should ban automobiles too.
I don't smoke but it has nothing to do with health why people don't like it. CVS played the game by recently stopping the sales of cigarettes but they continue to sell isles of candy, snacks, sodas, cookies etc...
It has nothing to do with health it has to do with personal agendas. Certain people of society don't like smokers so they band together to ban smoking and cig sales. They use health as the cover up to their agenda.
I don't see bans on bacon or butter or candy sweets etc... because to die from heart disease or diabetes is ok to these hypocrites.
Again i don't smoke i just hate people who take rights and choices away from people simply because they don't personally like it.
Thousands of people die every day in car accidents maybe we should ban automobiles too.
This what's sad - you have to identify yourself as a nonsmoker to validate your observations and opinions - and they are entirely reasonable.
I think the only thing society has left to do to smokers is imprison them. If that doesn't work, then that's what the death penalty is for. Why stop at assault? Let's charge smokers with attempted 2nd degree murder. That will fix the problem.
Frankly, the average smoker has been humiliated, taxed, and ostracized to the limit. They have had people cross entire parking lots to where they cower behind the dumpsters in puddles of urine as it pours rain upon them just for a smoke, and then have to endure that person giving them holy righteous hell for smoking. This is not an exaggeration, ask any smoker. They have been yelled at for lighting up in wide open spaces 100 yards from another person. They have been fired by jobs, they have been left by lovers. Their pack-a-day habit runs them close to $300 a month, with most of it going to the government.
How about this? Do you own a car? Don't you realize you pump far more poison into the air on a typical day than a smoker ever will in his short, miserable, pariah life? We have to breathe that air, you know.
I agree with you Maliblue. They give cigarette smokers a hard time, but want marijuana legalized. It makes no sense. The gov't wants to put a 35% tax on legal marijuana.
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