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So are you saying that because the Danes, for example, cast off religion (most of Europe is secular) that is why they now CAN talk more freely about sex, have longer vacations, etc.???
I'd say there is some truth in the metric that the more "religious" a culture, the more control it tries to assert over the flock. Americans complain about Islam but much of that is looking in the mirror. Many American men (at least of past generations) would love their wives to be hidden at home taking care of the household and obeying their every command.
. Yes, exactly! Sweden made a concerted effort to separate sex education from religion, so that the government (schools, clinics) could teach sex ed from a rational basis, rather than an emotional or religious one. They felt they had to ditch the religious baggage, so that kids (the n4ext generations of adults) could make healthy choices, i.e. both physically and psychologically healthy choices. I assume the other Scandinavian countries had similar deprogramming/reprogramming efforts.
This is why NYC flourished - it was freedom FROM religion.
I live in New England (W. Ma and RI) and see no trace of the Puritans. Now...it is true that "Yankees" can be thrifty, don't generally like to show off and can seem stand-offish to some (because they live and let live). But the live and let live quality is what I like best.
In all my dealings in New England I don't think I have heard the word "Church" or "Jesus" or "faith" mentioned once....and that's in over a decade. Pretty amazing....considering that my experiences in other places were/are far different.
So heading back to the original question - a quick look at debates and politics today show that much of the nation that we consider "religious" (Bible Belt, etc.) didn't stem from New Englanders. That is, there was never an exodus of people and churches from here to there. More likely the home-spun churches of the south developed their own "moral codes" which included white supremacy and slavery as well as the violent tendencies (anti-government, family and other feuds, etc.) of the Scotch-Irish.
Texas is another story altogether - we could probably separate a lot of the southwest where some catholic influence came from missions and mexicans (original converted by the Spanish, etc.).
Although I am no student of theology, I would summarize that the Puritans did not heavily influence the present day much...outside of some Calvinists in New England and similar sects. Religion, as a whole, has influenced America and - together with Brit influences - is probably responsible for our lack of topless beaches.
I agree that religion as a whole is and has been responsible. Look at what's happening as we write! The ultra right wing religious are making great progress in eroding the rights of women and in banning abortion in all cases.
This is why NYC flourished - it was freedom FROM religion.
I live in New England (W. Ma and RI) and see no trace of the Puritans. Now...it is true that "Yankees" can be thrifty, don't generally like to show off and can seem stand-offish to some (because they live and let live). But the live and let live quality is what I like best.
In all my dealings in New England I don't think I have heard the word "Church" or "Jesus" or "faith" mentioned once....and that's in over a decade. Pretty amazing....considering that my experiences in other places were/are far different.
So heading back to the original question - a quick look at debates and politics today show that much of the nation that we consider "religious" (Bible Belt, etc.) didn't stem from New Englanders. That is, there was never an exodus of people and churches from here to there. More likely the home-spun churches of the south developed their own "moral codes" which included white supremacy and slavery as well as the violent tendencies (anti-government, family and other feuds, etc.) of the Scotch-Irish.
Texas is another story altogether - we could probably separate a lot of the southwest where some catholic influence came from missions and mexicans (original converted by the Spanish, etc.).
Although I am no student of theology, I would summarize that the Puritans did not heavily influence the present day much...outside of some Calvinists in New England and similar sects. Religion, as a whole, has influenced America and - together with Brit influences - is probably responsible for our lack of topless beaches.
Puritan influence isn't about religious activities today. It's about values that became deeply embedded in the American psyche, beginning with those conservative founding communities, that went on, let's not forget, to carry out witch burnings, branding with a scarlet letter on the lapel, and so on. Good point, though, that later arrivals brought similarly restrictive values. The conservative values are shared by most Protestants and Catholics alike. The Puritans took the flack for it, because they were the first, and probably because they eventually went to extremes.
Looking back over this thread, Puritans and Pilgrims are two different groups, although they are often grouped under the same brand and called Puritans. But the Pilgrims were the people who settled Plymouth--Plymouth Rock, the Mayflower, Thanksgiving, learning from the Natives how to plant corn, beans, and squash (the three sisters.) The Pilgrims wanted to separate from the Church of England and start their own religion. They first went to Holland and then to the new world. They cared less about religion and more about starting a profitable colony.
In contrast, the Puritans settled the Massachusetts Bay Colony with Boston as the center, and were well educated people who aligned themselves with the Church of England. They, however, wanted to purify it of the rituals, ostentatious displays, etc. They wanted a plain and simple religion, serious, no frills. No dancing in the streets, no drunks, no bright colors, no fancy jewelry. Nothing to resemble the Catholic Church which they thought was over the top!
The Pilgrims of Plymouth were kinder and more tolerant while the Puritans of Boston were the ones who insisted upon strict and often cruel adherence to their rules.
So I think we are referring more to the real Puritans, the people who got crazy and started accusing people of witchcraft, who fined people for wearing decorative buttons or a brightly colored sash. They seemed to thrive on guilt and they believed that it was noble to suffer.
Their strict and unfair beliefs drove people away--some went to Rhode Island, some went west. Very few went south. Whatever drives the religion in the south today, didn't come from the Puritans or the Pilgrims. All were/are Protestants but they differed from each other.
After a while in New England, the Puritans ruled and the Pilgrims kind of faded away in terms of power. The Puritans were the highly educated but extremely strict, while the Pilgrims were more likely to be trades people, more ordinary and more tolerant.
I think the Protestant work ethic came from the Boston area Puritans, as did the value of an education. New England probably has more colleges and universities than any other part of the country and that's due to the Puritan influence. Hard work, sacrifice, giving up luxuries, suffering (it's noble), frugal living, simple life, plain clothing, taking the Bible literally and not working on Sunday--all of that is Puritan. What remains of it today, I think, is the high value of education in many parts of this country, especially in New England, as well as the work ethic, if much of that is left.
Here in New England, but not in other parts of the country, we usually still do not flaunt wealth, we are more quiet and reserved, we tend to not dress in bright colors or wear flashy clothes. But I think the value of education is the truest and still enduring legacy of the Boston Puritans. Probably our liberalism is the result of minds being opened by higher education.
Religion in the South comes from the Scots Irish--Northern English people who migrated to Northern Ireland and then to our South. I don't know what influence they have had except that they are supposed to be fiercely independent and were known for being warlike, fighting. The one New England state that has Scots Irish is New Hampshire--its motto: Live Free or Die. New Hampshire doesn't want anyone telling it what to do. Even with an influx of Massachusetts people, they do not like rules or laws and they will resist.
Last edited by in_newengland; 05-17-2019 at 09:20 PM..
Calvinist Protestantism is today more manifested in the South, than in New England. It’s not historically “Puritan”. But the basic idea is the same. A distant and centralized secular authority is deeply suspect, if not outright anathema. Law and social norms are to be rooted in theological precepts, and morality is revealed, rather than evolved. Sex and all things sexual are a source of shame, embarrassment and deep ambivalence. Life itself is more of an exercise and practice-session for an ineffably more fulfilling hereafter… but hints of eternal salvation can be manifest in this-life as well.
But I would argue that American religiosity and consequent “morality” are less the result of enduring Puritan heritage, than of the twists and vagaries of the 20th century. In 1900, much of Europe was not less religiously conservative than the US. Then the 20th century happened. European faith underwent a profound crisis of failure. American faith did the opposite. America was vindicated in its messianic zeal, while European faith in a benevolent spiritual-narrative was prostrated and violated. By the close on the 20th century, American religiosity was vibrant and resurgent, while in Europe it receded into historical/cultural consciousness, rather than active spirituality.
Even so, it is worth noting that worldwide the secular-liberal movement is receding. Look at resurgent European nationalism, with its turning to “tradition” as tribal badge. A powerful argument mustered against Middle-Eastern immigrants is that these newcomers are contrary to the European Christian ethos. Nude beaches remain uncommon, even in loosy-goosy Western Europe. One hears reports that young-people are less and less likely to be sexually active. If the moralists of the 1950s were to be transported into the present world, they’d smile at the renewed conservatism of our youth. It’s as if the 60s and 70s never happened.
Perhaps I should also talk about who colonized the South:
The slaveowners wanted poor whites to support slavery, so they would say, “If you work hard, you could own slaves one day.”
Jamestown was settled by English landowners with a “greed is good” mindset. They wanted to recreate the power and wealth they had in England and they were very hierarchical. Obviously, slaves didn’t get vacations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
Even so, it is worth noting that worldwide the secular-liberal movement is receding. Look at resurgent European nationalism, with its turning to “tradition” as tribal badge. A powerful argument mustered against Middle-Eastern immigrants is that these newcomers are contrary to the European Christian ethos. Nude beaches remain uncommon, even in loosy-goosy Western Europe. One hears reports that young-people are less and less likely to be sexually active. If the moralists of the 1950s were to be transported into the present world, they’d smile at the renewed conservatism of our youth. It’s as if the 60s and 70s never happened.
It seems to me that America became more uptight on some things (alcohol, music content, DEA-scheduled drugs) in the 1980s, but didn’t go totally “puritan” until the 1990s. Meanwhile Western Europe remained laissez-faire on these things until the 00s, at which point they all suddenly embraced American norms.
Yet even the 90s seem laissez-faire in comparison to the present in some ways. In the 90s, you had celebrities such as Christina Ricci and Marilyn Manson, and there’s these articles:
Immensely influential. Having travelled, America might be the most puritanical country on the planet. Trust me, we are very uptight compared to others in the world.
The Puritans believed in universal and public education, were isolationist (meaning uninterested in westward expansion or overseas conflicts), and didn’t grow tobacco, while the South grew tobacco, was anti-intellectual, and was eager for war and westward expansion.
Necro thread that never belonged at Great Debates. Search history for similar topics.
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