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But the saying goes is that when it's over it's not over because of a second spike, virus mutation or whatever the excuse of the day is. If flattening the curve was a near-term goal that was a lie why should believe anything the government tells us?
You are free to believe anything. But I choose to believe the majority of scientists and medical pros who tell us that if we aren’t careful we will have exponential growth of cases, and continued surges into our hospitals. If we can prevent thousands of deaths, I think everything else is gravy.
But I do think we need government help through this. People are not working, and they need financial help.
In the second spike, perhaps we will have much better testing and proven treatments. If we have a third spike, perhaps we’ll have a vaccine.
But the saying goes is that when it's over it's not over because of a second spike, virus mutation or whatever the excuse of the day is. If flattening the curve was a near-term goal that was a lie why should believe anything the government tells us?
Ive tried telling you why they do this! Part of the Govts goal right now, is maintaining control and order...sometimes they have to 'lie' or 'alter' information/news to the people, for their own best interest.
Do you actually think our govt would have a press conference and tell everyone that places are going to be shut down 6-8 months?!! Of course not..they say it will be 2 weeks, 30 days, etc and then we will 're evaluate'.
This is pretty easy to recognize...they are keeping people hopeful, (that tends to keep them compliant and obedient too).
This is pretty easy to recognize...they are keeping people hopeful, (that tends to keep them compliant and obedient too).
You can't fool people that way for long. And that's why you now have people in the streets. They know they've been lied to and that this shutdown is not necessary. It would be better if the government officials told the epidemiologists, "a two-year shutdown will never fly, come up with another plan." Lying works a very short time. If anyone is old enough to remember that's why LBJ didn't run for re-election; he lied for two long about Vietnam and people wouldn't just sit there, watch their sons get drafted and die.
The biggest problem with this current civilization is that we allowed the weak and the unhealthy to survive by helping them stay unhealthy and live through it. That's why many people of all race and ethnicity have stopped evolving. Then the 2nd problem is we allow these people to procreate who causes the genepool to become weaker. Darwin is not wrong, he will always be proven right every day as many people die of natural causes other than coronavirus. This lockdown actually saves more lives than COVID19 kills.
You can't fool people that way for long. And that's why you now have people in the streets. They know they've been lied to and that this shutdown is not necessary. It would be better if the government officials told the epidemiologists, "a two-year shutdown will never fly, come up with another plan." Lying works a very short time. If anyone is old enough to remember that's why LBJ didn't run for re-election; he lied for two long about Vietnam and people wouldn't just sit there, watch their sons get drafted and die.
Where do these ideas come from? Who do you trust to give you the information upon which you make posts like this? Why did anyone ever get the idea that the virus would have been vanquished in two weeks? If you believe that, you were lied to - not by any government agency or figure but by those who are looking to deceive.
There is also no expectation that it will take two years either. Have you never taken a science class? Do you have no idea how contagions work? Do you not understand how uncommonly transmissible the COVID-19 virus is?
It has been demonstrated that once separation of the infected and the healthy becomes commonplace that the spread can be checked; why do you want to abandon that separation? Why is the governor of Georgia abandoning separation requirements in his state at a time when the virus is continuing to proliferate? Until we are able to identify the infected through vastly increased testing the temporary burden of separation to curtail the spread of the virus must be shared by all. Unless, of course, you really don't care at all how many may die.
I'm still working, and my job is really contingent upon the economy opening back up.
I work for a hospital system. .
Most of the elective cases will still be there later on when things get more back to normal, except for those of the COVID-19 patients who have died while waiting to have their "elective" surgeries. Bum knees and hips, etc. are not going to repair themselves while we are all sheltered in place. People will still get colonoscopies and other diagnostic tests .
You may work for a hospital system, but from your post it does not appear that you are on the front lines or that you are very sympathetic with the heroic people that are saving lives and not complaining.
I hope that you are just having a bad day and that you actually care more about all the patients, the sick and the dying, than it appears.
...If we can prevent thousands of deaths, I think everything else is gravy.
Disagree. Completely. I read the same news, and I share your general warm regard for persons versed in the subject, as opposed to politicians, demagogues of whatever stripe, or casual commentators. Where we disagree is that saving any life is worth any price. I don't believe that it is. I believe that there is always a trade-off. Where exactly that trade-off falls, as woefully hard to ascertain. But it does exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty
It has been demonstrated that once separation of the infected and the healthy becomes commonplace that the spread can be checked; why do you want to abandon that separation?
The "demonstration" is not absolute. Viruses being viruses, leakage is always possible... and then we're back to our initial conditions. Nor is it clear, to my earlier point, that this separation is worth the trouble, even if it is effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty
Unless, of course, you really don't care at all how many may die.
It's not that I "don't care". But rather that I disagree that the means justify the ends.
Disagree. Completely. I read the same news, and I share your general warm regard for persons versed in the subject, as opposed to politicians, demagogues of whatever stripe, or casual commentators. Where we disagree is that saving any life is worth any price. I don't believe that it is. I believe that there is always a trade-off. Where exactly that trade-off falls, as woefully hard to ascertain. But it does exist.
The "demonstration" is not absolute. Viruses being viruses, leakage is always possible... and then we're back to our initial conditions. Nor is it clear, to my earlier point, that this separation is worth the trouble, even if it is effective.
It's not that I "don't care". But rather that I disagree that the means justify the ends.
It is not that "leakage" is possible, it is that complete separation is impossible. That does not indicate attempting a high degree of separation is futile as it has been proven to be quite effective in controlling infection levels.
Your personal cavalier attitude about the value of human life simply because yours is miserable does not justify abandoning the quest to give everyone the chance to fight for their own without the likes of you sabotaging those programs.
This is an excellent reply to all those who think we should just push precaution aside and "reopen our economy".
You touched though on what I think is the unanswerable point: If we don't control coronavirus the economy will be in shambles regardless of whether we "reopen it" or not.
Rational people aren't going to want to eat out, go to theater, go to sporting events, go to weddings, go to college graduations, watch a parade, or attend church services if they know there is a very real chance they contract a deadly disease in the process. Maybe a few people will, but for the most part its just not going to happen.
The key to regaining our economic security is either (1) find a vaccine for this disease; (2) find an effective treatment for it; or (3) Have testing on such a level that we can remove infected people from the population before they spread the disease to others.
If we can't do at least one of those three things our economy is sunk no matter what.
Thank you. You get it. What good is having everything opened if consumer confidence is destroyed and people don't trust that they are safe? Covid is a dragon of a virus. Taming this is going to be tough. Right now the two options we have is starving it and destroying the economy until a massive testing program is in place. We need essential workers to go first so they can go back to work or remain in isolation if they are asymptomatic carriers. We need everyone in the country to wear masks in public, and those of us that can stay home to do so for as long as it takes. There are still a lot of people working from home. We need to keep that in place for a few months, if not a year. That saves a lot of people from being exposed. I personally will not be going to any theater or restaurant for at least a year now. I don't even grocery shop now. I can't imagine recovering from surgery and fighting Covid too. I have to be super careful for at least the next 6 months, if not longer. I'm one of thousands of people out there like me. It breaks my to see this, but no amount of posturing or whining about lost freedom makes one bit of difference at this point. This is what we have to work with. It's going to be tough, but we will get through this and one day it will be over.
Understood. But there are multiple eyes through which one could behold the situation. The clinical eye is just one of them. Think of it this way... as a medical professional, you're interested in what's best for the patient. But what about the viewpoint of the health insurance company? They want to maximize profit. Is their viewpoint barbarous, cynical and invalid? Or is it one of... several viewpoints?
No.
Yes, that's absolutely fair. I mean it.
No, I am actually quite amenable to taking such a gamble.
Sorry, I don't have any relatives.
Actually, yes.
I've had nasty events in my life in recent years, that have seriously questioned the rational for living at all, let alone living to an old age. So yes, I am absolutely not just at peace with dying from the virus, but actually enthused about the prospect of becoming a medical-experiment.
I respect it, but when you endanger the innocent, which is what you're doing, then I can't respect that mentality. Why don't you volunteer for a vaccine research program?
Lordy. It breaks my heart to see your response about not caring if you die from this. That's incredibly sad. Just don't take someone innocent with you.
If you ever want someone to talk to, just PM me. I'll be glad to listen. When I was in health care, it didn't matter where you came from or what you did. If you needed help, I was there for you. Most of us in health care are good people with empathic tendencies. That didn't stop when I retired. I hope you find peace.
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