Is black culture part of Southern culture? (generations, Edwards, school)
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Black culture was bifurcated by the Great Migration in the first half of the 20th century into a rural culture and an urban culture.
The black rural culture, for the most part, is derived from and closely similar to traditional white southern culture in its deep and shallow aspects, although it differs in its surface aspects. You can see a media representation of black rural culture in the movie "Hidden Figures:" Tidy homes, Sunday church picnics, respect for the military, respectful children.
The black urban culture has further developed--or IMO "devolved"--on its own since the bifurcation.
In the 70s mass media discovered the black market gold mine, and, unfortunately, the media centers of New York and Hollywood did not go any further than their own ghettos to mine that market. So today, "black culture" is represented in media nearly absolutely by black urban culture.
One surface example is that "chicken and waffles" is considered soul food. The black rural culture did not have such a thing as "chicken and waffles" because waffles are not a southern dish. Rural southerners did not have waffle irons, which are single-use utensils that would not be found in a southern home. Fried chicken and waffles first appeared in Harlem in 1938--an early product of the bifurcation.
For that matter, the coining of "soul food" itself is a product of the bifurcation. In the south, those foods are merely "food"--everyone eats it. In the north, it was associated with the black people who had moved north.
Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 01-04-2022 at 05:58 PM..
Simple question
Is black culture part of Southern culture?
Or is Southern culture only the white part of Southern culture
Well, it all depends. For example, whenever there is discussion about the confederate flag, supporters say it represents Southern pride. In all likelihood, they mean white southern pride. It certainly would not be part of Black Southern culture to fly that flag on poles, trucks and anywhere else.
Well, it all depends. For example, whenever there is discussion about the confederate flag, supporters say it represents Southern pride. In all likelihood, they mean white southern pride. It certainly would not be part of Black Southern culture to fly that flag on poles, trucks and anywhere else.
What I never understood is people in Pennsylvania, Indiana etc., flying the flag. I can "sorta" understand why Ol' Jim from Texas, Louisiana or Mississippi would fly the flag since his great-great grandaddy fought for the Rebs. The random Midwestern or Northeastern white person doing it just seems..........extra. It's not apart of their heritage since their ancestors either weren't even IN America during the Civil War or their ancestors fought for the Union. Almost seems like a slap in the face to their own family.
Black culture was bifurcated by the Great Migration in the first half of the 20th century into a rural culture and an urban culture.
The black rural culture, for the most part, is derived from and closely similar to traditional white southern culture in its deep and shallow aspects, although it differs in its surface aspects. You can see a media representation of black rural culture in the movie "Hidden Figures:" Tidy homes, Sunday church picnics, respect for the military, respectful children.
The black urban culture has further developed--or IMO "devolved"--on its own since the bifurcation.
In the 70s mass media discovered the black market gold mine, and, unfortunately, the media centers of New York and Hollywood did not go any further than their own ghettos to mine that market. So today, "black culture" is represented in media nearly absolutely by black urban culture.
One surface example is that "chicken and waffles" is considered soul food. The black rural culture did not have such a thing as "chicken and waffles" because waffles are not a southern dish. Rural southerners did not have waffle irons, which are single-use utensils that would not be found in a southern home. Fried chicken and waffles first appeared in Harlem in 1938--an early product of the bifurcation.
For that matter, the coining of "soul food" itself is a product of the bifurcation. In the south, those foods are merely "food"--everyone eats it. In the north, it was associated with the black people who had moved north.
Dang, great points.
My parents both grew up in rural east Texas and they never mentioned even eating waffles until they were well into adulthood.
Flapjacks, biscuits, cornbread w/buttermilk, hot water cornbread....yes. Soul food isn't really a thing in the south. It's just "food."
On the subject of culture, ghettos etc., I've noticed that it even spills over into crime. Blacks involved in numbers, the dope game and other ventures seemed to have different approaches depending on where they lived. Blacks up north had a tendency to want to operate like ethnic white gangs/syndicates (Bumpy Johnson, Frank Lucas, BMF etc). They saw being 'organized' like white enterprises as the most efficient way to do business. In the south, blacks involved in crime appeared to operate with a more independent mindset.
We can see this in hip-hop. Big time rappers in NYC were all waiting on their chance to get signed by major labels while southern rappers just started their own companies (James Prince, Master P, Bryan 'Birdman' Williams, Luther Campbell etc).
Northern blacks felt like they had to essentially mimic the white power structure while putting their own spin on things while southern blacks figured they'd get nowhere mimicking the local white power structure so they worked outside of it. I'm making a lot of broad generalizations based on "feelings."
On the subject of culture, ghettos etc., I've noticed that it even spills over into crime. Blacks involved in numbers, the dope game and other ventures seemed to have different approaches depending on where they lived. Blacks up north had a tendency to want to operate like ethnic white gangs/syndicates (Bumpy Johnson, Frank Lucas, BMF etc). They saw being 'organized' like white enterprises as the most efficient way to do business. In the south, blacks involved in crime appeared to operate with a more independent mindset.
We can see this in hip-hop. Big time rappers in NYC were all waiting on their chance to get signed by major labels while southern rappers just started their own companies (James Prince, Master P, Bryan 'Birdman' Williams, Luther Campbell etc).
Northern blacks felt like they had to essentially mimic the white power structure while putting their own spin on things while southern blacks figured they'd get nowhere mimicking the local white power structure so they worked outside of it. I'm making a lot of broad generalizations based on "feelings."
Some years ago, I was talking to an older guy from Chicago who mentioned one big difference he saw when he spent some time in the south was that southern blacks seemed far more likely to start their own businesses rather than trying to get a job with a large company.
For that matter, the coining of "soul food" itself is a product of the bifurcation. In the south, those foods are merely "food"--everyone eats it. In the north, it was associated with the black people who had moved north.
This is SO true, and being from the South myself, I tell non-Southerners this all the time. White Southerners eat things like fried chicken, collard greens, okra, buttermilk mashed potatoes, etc. too. They just call theirs things like "Down Home Cooking," "Southern cuisine," "Comfort Food," or "Meat and threes" instead of Soul Food. Heck, how do you think PAULA DEAN got so famous...?
Sometime this past year I watched a YouTube interview of Muddy Waters. It was back in the late 60s or early 70s, and young white teens and adults were lining up to see him. They knew of Muddy Waters because of The Rolling Stones, and Muddy acknowledged in his interview that the Stones were the only reason they knew him, but you could tell he was proud that he had reached another demographic that wouldn't have known of him in the not-so-distant past.
At one point the interviewer asked him if his young white fans who wanted to imitate him could ever play like him, and he laughed and said (paraphrased), "Oh no, they can't. They haven't had enough soul, haven't seen enough hard times."
It has always interested me that so much of the rock derived from Delta blues came to us via Brits like the Stones and Elton John who caught onto it and tried to imitate it.
That reminds me of the whole Motown vs. Stax debate. Motown was souful, but its music and acts were also more polished in order to cross over and appeal to White folks as well as Black folks, while Stax just made straight up, unfiltered and unapologetic Soul music, so it's no surprise that Motown (The Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes, etc) was ultimately more successful and lasted longer than Stax (Issac Hayes, Al Green, Otis Redding, The Barkays, etc).
That Muddy Waters interview reminds me of when I read The Temptations book by group founder Otis Williams, and he straight up admitted in the book that while every last one of the Temptations came from the Black church and could straight up SANG, as a group, when they went into the studio to record songs, they never sang the melodies or the notes in a manner that made it too complicated for their (white) fans to sing along with; the implication was that they sang the songs with just enough Soul to make them sound great and stand out, but if they got TOO soulful and started straight up SANGING like they did growing up back in the South in the Black church, then white fans wouldn't buy as many of their records or concert tickets because they wouldn't feel like THEY could actually sing or follow the songs as well themselves.
Last edited by NoClueWho; 01-05-2022 at 09:09 AM..
This is SO true, and being from the South myself, I tell non-Southerners this all the time. White Southerners eat things like fried chicken, collard greens, okra, buttermilk mashed potatoes, etc. too. They just call theirs things like "Down Home Cooking," "Southern cuisine," "Comfort Food," or "Meat and threes" instead of Soul Food. Heck, how do you think PAULA DEAN got so famous...?
Interesting. The only way those of us who rarely traveled south were introduced to that type of food WAS through black people.
Although, that sparked a memory. My neighbors across the hall in an apartment where I once lived used to have us over regularly for "soul food" when the man cooked on Sundays. They were black people originally from the south, and his father had been a cook. As a matter of fact, when they first moved in, I was up at 5 getting ready for work and told my husband "Someone is cooking fried chicken before dawn." Turns out I was right--the neighbor was a truck driver who got up early and cooked food to take on the road with him.
Then one day they asked us over because family was coming and they were celebrating a birthday or something. The woman told me with a grin that they'd ordered food in--"white people food", she said.
Turned out they'd ordered Italian. I told her I'd never eaten most of that "white people food" until I was an adult, and that in fact, my Archie-Bunker-type grandfather would have informed her that Italians were most certainly not white people.
I suppose then she learned a little something about "northern white" culture.
That reminds me of the whole Motown vs. Stax debate. Motown was souful, but its music and acts were also more polished in order to cross over and appeal to White folks as well as Black folks, while Stax just made straight up, unfiltered and unapologetic Soul music, so it's no surprise that Motown (The Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes, etc) was ultimately more successful and lasted longer than Stax (Issac Hayes, Al Green, Otis Redding, The Barkays, etc).
Those are very true differences. The Memphis sound was rougher, harder-edged, grittier than the Motown sound.
I don't know that Berry Gordy polished his groups particularly for crossover appeal, but the difference was real.
When Motown went to Los Angelas, however, it did change measurably for crossover appeal. <sigh>
Interesting. The only way those of us who rarely traveled south were introduced to that type of food WAS through black people.
Although, that sparked a memory. My neighbors across the hall in an apartment where I once lived used to have us over regularly for "soul food" when the man cooked on Sundays. They were black people originally from the south, and his father had been a cook. As a matter of fact, when they first moved in, I was up at 5 getting ready for work and told my husband "Someone is cooking fried chicken before dawn." Turns out I was right--the neighbor was a truck driver who got up early and cooked food to take on the road with him.
Then one day they asked us over because family was coming and they were celebrating a birthday or something. The woman told me with a grin that they'd ordered food in--"white people food", she said.
This is what I was pointing out, that in the South, Black people and white people pretty much eat the same foods and same style of food in general, but Black people still have their own variations of certain foods and recipes, especially when it comes to SEASONING. That is often what Black folks jokingly mean when they say, "white people food," rather than the actual TYPE of food.
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