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Interesting. The only way those of us who rarely traveled south were introduced to that type of food WAS through black people.
Although, that sparked a memory. My neighbors across the hall in an apartment where I once lived used to have us over regularly for "soul food" when the man cooked on Sundays. They were black people originally from the south, and his father had been a cook. As a matter of fact, when they first moved in, I was up at 5 getting ready for work and told my husband "Someone is cooking fried chicken before dawn." Turns out I was right--the neighbor was a truck driver who got up early and cooked food to take on the road with him.
Then one day they asked us over because family was coming and they were celebrating a birthday or something. The woman told me with a grin that they'd ordered food in--"white people food", she said.
Turned out they'd ordered Italian. I told her I'd never eaten most of that "white people food" until I was an adult, and that in fact, my Archie-Bunker-type grandfather would have informed her that Italians were most certainly not white people.
I suppose then she learned a little something about "northern white" culture.
MQ, that's so funny about your Black neighbors calling Italian food "White people food"! It reminds me of an episode form the 1950s sitcom, The Danny Thomas Show, in which Danny and his wife are invited to someone's house for an "unusual" meal that they had never before tasted. What was that "unusual" meal? Lasagna! I guess in the 1950s, if you weren't Italian, lasagna wouldn't be something you'd be very familiar with!
Those are very true differences. The Memphis sound was rougher, harder-edged, grittier than the Motown sound.
Absolutely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
I don't know that Berry Gordy polished his groups particularly for crossover appeal, but the difference was real.
Sure he did!!! ESPECIALLY during those early Motown days in the 60s, when he forced all his artists to go to "charm school" and had all the guys dressed up in expensive tailored tuxes with conked out or neatly trimmed hair, and all the girls in elegant dresses and gowns with big, fancy, wigs. In the 60s, the Motown artists all pretty much had a uniform look and style.
Now, that's not to say that Motown was NOT soulful at all or was not Black enough, but Berry definitely was concious about tempering just how soulful they sang on recorded songs and just how culturally Black they came across in their appearances and their comportment; there is a reason why Motown blew up in the mainstream in the 60s and why for decades since the 60s, most of the Motown tributes, plays, reunion concerts, revues, etc. have been patronized mainly by aging and elderly white audiences and contain *mostly* the 60s material and styles of dress that made white audiences hip to Motown in the first place.
If anything, the 70s is when Motown acts started to loosen up and express their soul and their Blackness more, like Stax had been doing all along from the very beginning. You saw guys like Marvin Gaye and Stevie and the Tempts say, "Hey, we're tired of singing all these ballads and love songs about heartbreak, and tried of being forced to be clean shaved and wear stuffy, formal tuxes all the time,"; they started growing their hair out into fros, braids, etc., dressing in Dashikis and more "urban" styles like everyday Black people were actually wearing during the 70s, and singing songs with lyrics about Black Power and politics. The vocals even started to become less unapologetically soulful and Black, with Marvin Gaye shouting about Black folks getting sent to Vietnam to die, Dennis Edwards growling about Black people being kept in poverty in the ghetto and his father being a "Rolling Stone,'' etc.
But not to stray too far from the point, you brought up bifurcation, and said that bifurcation of Black culture in America started to develop when Blacks migrated from the South to northern cities where they started to try to fit their culture into the White Northern culture. I think Motown---was was based in the North in Detroit and operated more in ways that would cast a wider net and appeal to WHITE audiences as well as Black audiences---and Stax---which was based in the South in Memphis and never tried to temper its soulfulness and Blackness---are the perfect example of this. So, when people ask, "Is Black Culture part of Southern Culture," the way Motown (based in the North) and Stax (based in the South) presented themselves and operated is an example that answers that question perfectly.
MQ, that's so funny about your Black neighbors calling Italian food "White people food"! It reminds me of an episode form the 1950s sitcom, The Danny Thomas Show, in which Danny and his wife are invited to someone's house for an "unusual" meal that they had never before tasted. What was that "unusual" meal? Lasagna! I guess in the 1950s, if you weren't Italian, lasagna wouldn't be something you'd be very familiar with!
We weren't. When I was 15, my piano teacher and her husband took my cousin (also her student) and me to see an Oratorio at St. Bartholomew's Church in New York City and then to dinner afterward (the piano teacher was also related to us). I remember we went to a neighborhood called "Chelsea", and of course at that time I had no idea of city neighborhoods because we weren't city people, but years later I remembered Chelsea when I went to work in the city and knew where it was.
Anyway, I remember her asking me if I liked Italian food, and I said I didn't know because I'd never had it. We went to a little restaurant and the food was WONDERFUL.
Looking back, we did have spaghetti and meatballs near the end of Dad's pay period when the food budget was low, probably because my mother had found it a way to feed ten people cheaply.
But mostly we grew up on meat and potatoes and vegetables, plainly cooked, little spice, with the occasional break of rice or egg noodles instead of some kind of potatoes. Later my mother made lasagna I guess as Italian food became more mainstream. I once asked for her recipe and she said, "It's on the back of the Ronzoni box."
But when I first met people who made their own sauce, I couldn't understand why anyone would do that when you could just pick up a jar in the supermarket. Now I have a very close Italian friend who gets the vapors if you mention jarred sauce.
To Italians, it's just "food" like southern cooking is southerners, I guess.
I've posted before that the only time I ever had fried chicken growing up was when once a year we went to a restaurant for my grandmother's birthday, and I would order this amazing dish called "chicken in a basket". It was SO good, and I'd never tasted anything like it before. It was fried chicken and french fries, lol.
Sure he did!!! ESPECIALLY during those early Motown days in the 60s, when he forced all his artists to go to "charm school" and had all the guys dressed up in expensive tailored tuxes with conked out or neatly trimmed hair, and all the girls in elegant dresses and gowns with big, fancy, wigs. In the 60s, the Motown artists all pretty much had a uniform look and style.
Now, that's not to say that Motown was NOT soulful at all or was not Black enough, but Berry definitely was concious about tempering just how soulful they sang on recorded songs and just how culturally Black they came across in their appearances and their comportment; there is a reason why Motown blew up in the mainstream in the 60s and why for decades since the 60s, most of the Motown tributes, plays, reunion concerts, revues, etc. have been patronized mainly by aging and elderly white audiences and contain *mostly* the 60s material and styles of dress that made white audiences hip to Motown in the first place.
If anything, the 70s is when Motown acts started to loosen up and express their soul and their Blackness more, like Stax had been doing all along from the very beginning. You saw guys like Marvin Gaye and Stevie and the Tempts say, "Hey, we're tired of singing all these ballads and love songs about heartbreak, and tried of being forced to be clean shaved and wear stuffy, formal tuxes all the time,"; they started growing their hair out into fros, braids, etc., dressing in Dashikis and more "urban" styles like everyday Black people were actually wearing during the 70s, and singing songs with lyrics about Black Power and politics. The vocals even started to become less unapologetically soulful and Black, with Marvin Gaye shouting about Black folks getting sent to Vietnam to die, Dennis Edwards growling about Black people being kept in poverty in the ghetto and his father being a "Rolling Stone,'' etc.
But not to stray too far from the point, you brought up bifurcation, and said that bifurcation of Black culture in America started to develop when Blacks migrated from the South to northern cities where they started to try to fit their culture into the White Northern culture. I think Motown---was was based in the North in Detroit and operated more in ways that would cast a wider net and appeal to WHITE audiences as well as Black audiences---and Stax---which was based in the South in Memphis and never tried to temper its soulfulness and Blackness---are the perfect example of this. So, when people ask, "Is Black Culture part of Southern Culture," the way Motown (based in the North) and Stax (based in the South) presented themselves and operated is an example that answers that question perfectly.
I'm not sure this was entirely about transracial crossover appeal though. Most black people pre-70's were fairly conservative and traditional in their dress and manner. Compare the white artists of the 60's to the white artists of the 70's. They also transition from a more formal mode of dress and comportment, to longer hair and more expressive stage presence. It just mirrored a general American cultural change. Take for example the Beatles early career look vs their 70's look.
But when I first met people who made their own sauce, I couldn't understand why anyone would do that when you could just pick up a jar in the supermarket. Now I have a very close Italian friend who gets the vapors if you mention jarred sauce.
Living in New York, I had always heard the word "sauce" used to describe what you make out of tomatoes for a spaghetti dinner. But then I started watching The Sopranos, which depicted the New Jersey Italians calling it "gravy." Wait-- What? Surely "gravy" is the brown stuff, and "sauce" is the red stuff, right? I just couldn't get used to hearing Tony Soprano & Co. raving about great tomato-based "gravy."
As to Southern culture, when it comes to food and cooking, it may be that Southern Blacks have more in common with Southern Jews than they have with Southern White Protestants. At least, that's what Michael Twitty, a Black Jewish food writer and culinary historian, seems to hypothesize as a Jewish-Black cooking connection in his article: Michael Twitty on the Connection Between Jewish Food and Soul Food.
Here are a couple of books mentioned in the article that may be of interest:
Sure he did!!! ESPECIALLY during those early Motown days in the 60s, when he forced all his artists to go to "charm school" and had all the guys dressed up in expensive tailored tuxes with conked out or neatly trimmed hair, and all the girls in elegant dresses and gowns with big, fancy, wigs. In the 60s, the Motown artists all pretty much had a uniform look and style.
Now, that's not to say that Motown was NOT soulful at all or was not Black enough, but Berry definitely was concious about tempering just how soulful they sang on recorded songs and just how culturally Black they came across in their appearances and their comportment; there is a reason why Motown blew up in the mainstream in the 60s and why for decades since the 60s, most of the Motown tributes, plays, reunion concerts, revues, etc. have been patronized mainly by aging and elderly white audiences and contain *mostly* the 60s material and styles of dress that made white audiences hip to Motown in the first place.
If anything, the 70s is when Motown acts started to loosen up and express their soul and their Blackness more, like Stax had been doing all along from the very beginning. You saw guys like Marvin Gaye and Stevie and the Tempts say, "Hey, we're tired of singing all these ballads and love songs about heartbreak, and tried of being forced to be clean shaved and wear stuffy, formal tuxes all the time,"; they started growing their hair out into fros, braids, etc., dressing in Dashikis and more "urban" styles like everyday Black people were actually wearing during the 70s, and singing songs with lyrics about Black Power and politics. The vocals even started to become less unapologetically soulful and Black, with Marvin Gaye shouting about Black folks getting sent to Vietnam to die, Dennis Edwards growling about Black people being kept in poverty in the ghetto and his father being a "Rolling Stone,'' etc.
But not to stray too far from the point, you brought up bifurcation, and said that bifurcation of Black culture in America started to develop when Blacks migrated from the South to northern cities where they started to try to fit their culture into the White Northern culture. I think Motown---was was based in the North in Detroit and operated more in ways that would cast a wider net and appeal to WHITE audiences as well as Black audiences---and Stax---which was based in the South in Memphis and never tried to temper its soulfulness and Blackness---are the perfect example of this. So, when people ask, "Is Black Culture part of Southern Culture," the way Motown (based in the North) and Stax (based in the South) presented themselves and operated is an example that answers that question perfectly.
Good thoughts.
So does the Memphis soul sound share any characteristics with white country? In some cases I've noted the only difference between blues and country is whether the band uses a base guitar or a steel guitar.
That reminds me of the whole Motown vs. Stax debate. Motown was souful, but its music and acts were also more polished in order to cross over and appeal to White folks as well as Black folks, while Stax just made straight up, unfiltered and unapologetic Soul music, so it's no surprise that Motown (The Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes, etc) was ultimately more successful and lasted longer than Stax (Issac Hayes, Al Green, Otis Redding, The Barkays, etc).
That Muddy Waters interview reminds me of when I read The Temptations book by group founder Otis Williams, and he straight up admitted in the book that while every last one of the Temptations came from the Black church and could straight up SANG, as a group, when they went into the studio to record songs, they never sang the melodies or the notes in a manner that made it too complicated for their (white) fans to sing along with; the implication was that they sang the songs with just enough Soul to make them sound great and stand out, but if they got TOO soulful and started straight up SANGING like they did growing up back in the South in the Black church, then white fans wouldn't buy as many of their records or concert tickets because they wouldn't feel like THEY could actually sing or follow the songs as well themselves.
I'm quite white, and I quite admire the Stax type, indeed sometimes prefer them to the Motown type. Otis Redding in particular, and Isaac Hayes. I just don't cotton to Al Green and I am not familiar with the Barkays. What are other Stax-type groups?
I happen to own Aretha Franklin's two-disc gospel album, lots of Miriam Anderson and Paul Robeson gospel, among others. I even have Olatunji!* ‎– Drums Of Passion. One of the songs of that, Gin-Go-Lo-Ba was reinvented by Santana in Jingo at Woodstock. Videos below:
I live in the south now. I was raised in Massachusetts and raised my family in the Midwest. There were no black people in either place, save one or two, so neither I or my kids were raised with any exposure to black culture.
When I moved to Savannah GA, I was immersed in it. I’m outnumbered and somewhat perplexed by it. Just because I don’t care about black culture, doesn’t mean anything against it. I respect it. It just means I’m not interested in it, any more than the black people here aren’t interested in my Swedish heritage either.
I don’t like corn bread stuffing at thanksgiving, and my diet consists of more than fried chicken, collard greens and macaroni and cheese. To each his own.
I'm not sure this was entirely about transracial crossover appeal though. Most black people pre-70's were fairly conservative and traditional in their dress and manner. Compare the white artists of the 60's to the white artists of the 70's. They also transition from a more formal mode of dress and comportment, to longer hair and more expressive stage presence. It just mirrored a general American cultural change. Take for example the Beatles early career look vs their 70's look.
That's not necessary true. The average Black American who wasn't dressed to go to church, a Civil Rights leader, or some type of mainstream performer in the public eye wasn't walking every day in tuxes and full black suits and ties in the 60s. My family has lived in Memphis for generations and you can look back through old family photos and see what casual wear was like in the 60s, and I can garuantee you that weren't chilling at home or just walking around their neighborhood dressed in tuxes or full black suits like Dr. King, the Temptations, or even the Beetles. Sure, the 60s were more conservative than the 70s (the first half was anyway), but just the fact that you used white groups like the Beetles as a measuring stick proves the fact that Berry Gordy's Motown acts and several other Black performers who were trying to emulate what acts were wearing and doing at the time, to gain mainstream success, respect, and popularity in one of the most racially turbulent times for Black folks ij America, the 60s. As I stated before, down South in Memphis, the Stax artists weren't dressing like that regularly during the 60s, and they were far more representative of the everyday Black look and style than Motown's super polished, INTENTIONALLY conservatively dressed acts were. Al Green was wearing suit jackets, but they were loudly colored with plad patterns and wide lapels; Otis Redding was wearing open wide collar shirts with his chest exposed; Heck, Issac Hayes was wearing tight, loud colored pants and going completely shirtless with heavy gold chains on (not average fashion, but you get the point), etc.
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