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Biden promised student loan forgiveness when he campaigned for president. Up till now he has only forgiven a very small part for a few students.
Politicians say all sorts of things and make many different promises to various groups to get people to vote for them.
A lot of people have heartburn with any student loan forgiveness. Especially pissed off are people that saved for tuition and have no student debt & people that never went to college having to shoulder the financial burden for others.
Also part of getting an education is paying for books, supplies, housing and food. Some colleges have dorms and students pay rent to the college. A lot of student debt money went to pay these incidental items that are not direct education related.
Would people be more inclined to debt forgiveness or not charging interest on the tuition portion of the debt? Borrowers would still be on the hook for any money borrowed over and above the cost of tuition. It doesn't seem fair to forgive living expenses for students for 4 or more years.
An example would be someone owing $25K in student loans. $16K of that is tuition, the balance for other expenses. The borrower would owe the entire principal and interest on the $9,000 that was spent on living expenses. A portion of the $16K tuition money would be forgiven or else eliminate the interest portion of that money.
I suspect the reason that there hasn't been any movement of student loan forgiveness is due to its' overall unacceptability to those who don't have any student debt. Trying to find a solution that satisfies both sides often results in inaction on the issue.
Or does anyone have other ideas that they think might appeal to both groups?
"part of getting (sic) an education is paying for books, supplies, housing and food"
Who says? Where do to get your information? Is this your opinion - that an education should in some way. involve out of pocket payment of funds by the student?
1. Studies show that student who do not need to worry about these expenses have -
- Higher GPAs
+ Lower attrition rates.
- graduate in less time.
All of these combines to favor students who's parents think that paying for college is an obligation, and students who come from wealthy families. (NO they are not always the same.
Better grades corelate with a better chance of obtaining a graduate assistantship, which defreys or eliminates the students graduate school tuition.
Until sometime during the Regan administration, loans were NOT the main source of funding an undergrad education for students of middle or lower income - GOVERNMENT GRANTS WERE.
After WWII, the necessity of at least a four-year college degree was recognized by parents, many of whom obtained their bachelors with the aid of the GI bill.
The Nixon and Reagan administrations did their best to pit the working class against the college educated.
This is just an attempt to distract Americans from income inequity. As banks became increasingly involved with the payment of student loans, college tuition rose exponentially.
Having commercial banks directly involved with education was a regressive move that favored the banking industry.
Funny how people freak out at the thought of college debt forgiveness - but are fine with bailing out the auto industry - as they ship jobs over seas and close domestic plants! Why is that?
There are those who want to only give loans to students who major in "useful" majors.
Interestingly - Conservative Icon Ronald Reagan funded HIS children's majors - Ron Reagan JR majored in Dance, and Patti Davis in Theater Arts.
Nixon footed the bill for his darling daughters, Tricia and Julie. One attended a Seven Sisters school, Smith College majoring in a liberal arts subject. The other attended Finch College for Woman, a now defunct mostly two year "finishing school" that began to offer two-year degrees in the 1950s. Her degree was in a liberal arts subject.
Tricia the one who attended Finch College, later obtained her BA in English at Boston College.
The daughters of George W. Bush, did not contribute to their educations either. Jenna attended New York University and received a degree in English. Her twin Barbara attended the University of Texas at Austin and also graduated with am English degree!
"part of getting (sic) an education is paying for books, supplies, housing and food"
Who says? Where do to get your information? Is this your opinion - that an education should in some way. involve out of pocket payment of funds by the student?
1. Studies show that student who do not need to worry about these expenses have -
- Higher GPAs
+ Lower attrition rates.
- graduate in less time.
All of these combines to favor students who's parents think that paying for college is an obligation, and students who come from wealthy families. (NO they are not always the same.
Better grades corelate with a better chance of obtaining a graduate assistantship, which defreys or eliminates the students graduate school tuition.
Until sometime during the Regan administration, loans were NOT the main source of funding an undergrad education for students of middle or lower income - GOVERNMENT GRANTS WERE.
After WWII, the necessity of at least a four-year college degree was recognized by parents, many of whom obtained their bachelors with the aid of the GI bill.
The Nixon and Reagan administrations did their best to pit the working class against the college educated.
This is just an attempt to distract Americans from income inequity. As banks became increasingly involved with the payment of student loans, college tuition rose exponentially.
Having commercial banks directly involved with education was a regressive move that favored the banking industry.
Funny how people freak out at the thought of college debt forgiveness - but are fine with bailing out the auto industry - as they ship jobs over seas and close domestic plants! Why is that?
There are those who want to only give loans to students who major in "useful" majors.
Interestingly - Conservative Icon Ronald Reagan funded HIS children's majors - Ron Reagan JR majored in Dance, and Patti Davis in Theater Arts.
Nixon footed the bill for his darling daughters, Tricia and Julie. One attended a Seven Sisters school, Smith College majoring in a liberal arts subject. The other attended Finch College for Woman, a now defunct mostly two year "finishing school" that began to offer two-year degrees in the 1950s. Her degree was in a liberal arts subject.
Tricia the one who attended Finch College, later obtained her BA in English at Boston College.
The daughters of George W. Bush, did not contribute to their educations either. Jenna attended New York University and received a degree in English. Her twin Barbara attended the University of Texas at Austin and also graduated with am English degree!
I get your point, I'm typically against corporate welfare or bailouts but I'm not sure the bolded line is best to make your point. Those bailouts were unpopular. The people who were for fine with them were directly tied to the auto industry in some capacity, so bailing out the industry literally saved their butts. The problem with student loan forgiveness is it’s difficult to show the direct benefit to non- student loan debt holding individuals. As the old saying goes "what's in it for me."
The Nixon and Reagan administrations did their best to pit the working class against the college educated.
That is factually incorrect. Regardless, such political statements belong in P&OC and have nothing to do with the current discussion regarding the advisability of wholesale student loan forgiveness.
Wholesale student loan forgiveness is unquestionably a bad thing, as it leads to an inefficient allocation of capital. Any graduate student of Economics can prove it given a handful of whiteboards and some not particularly advanced mathematics. That proof shows that GDP and hence GDP per capita is lower than it otherwise would be. GDP and GDP per capita are the measures of societal welfare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
This is just an attempt to distract Americans from income inequity.
Income inequality is a good thing. Strike that: income inequality is a GREAT thing. It provides incentives for extraordinary performance. As individuals seek income to fulfill their wants and desires, they achieve income from contributing to GDP, which makes everyone better off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
As banks became increasingly involved with the payment of student loans, college tuition rose exponentially.
Factually incorrect once again. it is only the availability of federally insured student loans that were a problem. Absent Federal Insurance, no bank would lend money to a student absent a strong likelihood of repayment. Once the Federal Government intervened by guaranteeing repayment, then banks did not care about the student's ability to pay back the loan.
THAT has been the driving factor since at least the 1970s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
Having commercial banks directly involved with education was a regressive move that favored the banking industry.
Incorrect. Having the Federal Government involved in a private loan transaction between a willing borrower and the willing lender is the root cause of the problem. This shifted risk away from the bank to the Federal Government on behalf of the borrower. It was the BORROWER who benefited. The bank merely was repaid what it was owed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
Funny how people freak out at the thought of college debt forgiveness - but are fine with bailing out the auto industry - as they ship jobs over seas and close domestic plants! Why is that?
The above statements are all over the map and have nothing to do with the topic of wholesale forgiveness of student loans and the resultant lowering of the nations GDP that has occurred because of it. The auto industry has nothing to do with this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
There are those who want to only give loans to students who major in "useful" majors.
If society is to extend a student loan, then society should decide if the educational program is worthy of society's investment.
Today, our universities do not graduate enough scientists and engineers to fulfill the nation's ever growing demand. As a consequence, we import scientists and engineers from other countries. That is, those other countries do a better job of producing talent than does the USA - Electrical Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, Chemical Engineers, Solid State Physicists, Photolithography Engineers, Biomedical Engineers, Mining Engineers, Environmental Engineers, Agricultural Engineers, Robotics Engineers, etc etc etc.
If our government is to intervene in the marketplace for talent, then let intervene on behalf of what our economy needs - and most assuredly, our economy does not need more university graduates in non-value-add courses of study.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
Interestingly - Conservative Icon Ronald Reagan funded HIS children's majors - Ron Reagan JR majored in Dance, and Patti Davis in Theater Arts.
The parents paid cash. There was no federally insured student loan. Thus, your entire comment above is irrelevant to the discussion of wholesale forgiveness of federally insured student loans and the resultant lowering of GDP that goes with it. When parents fund their child's education, they are free to choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
Nixon footed the bill for his darling daughters, Tricia and Julie. One attended a Seven Sisters school, Smith College majoring in a liberal arts subject. The other attended Finch College for Woman, a now defunct mostly two year "finishing school" that began to offer two-year degrees in the 1950s. Her degree was in a liberal arts subject.
Tricia the one who attended Finch College, later obtained her BA in English at Boston College.
The parents paid cash. There was no federally insured student loan. Thus, your entire comment above is irrelevant to the discussion of wholesale forgiveness of federally insured student loans and the resultant lowering of GDP that goes with it. When parents fund their child's education, they are free to choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
The daughters of George W. Bush, did not contribute to their educations either. Jenna attended New York University and received a degree in English. Her twin Barbara attended the University of Texas at Austin and also graduated with am English degree!
The parents paid cash. There was no federally insured student loan. Thus, your entire comment above is irrelevant to the discussion of wholesale forgiveness of federally insured student loans and the resultant lowering of GDP that goes with it. When parents fund their child's education, they are free to choose.
Here's an idea: scrap the idea of student loan forgiveness.
Ridiculous. If you're that damn dumb that you don't understand the basic concept of a contract in which you agree to repay a loan taken and given in good faith, a college education isn't going to help you.
We never should have moved to financing college by individual loans to students to begin with. How STUPID is that??
The public colleges should be funded by the public through taxes. The private colleges should be pay-as-you-go & fee for service. Period.
The loans will eventually have to be dealt with. What'll happen is that people just won't pay them. You can garnish their tax returns or whatever but that won't pay them either. However, unless we fix college finance, we'll have the same loan problem again in 10-15 years so any abrogation of the existing loans has to be accompanied by college finance reform.
Oh and for reference, here is the median student debt by major
As you can see, it's not so clear cut between STEM and arts/humanities what is costing a lot. So those of you picking and choosing what subjects we should fund or not - you need to look at the actual data.
Here's the labor market outcomes by major: https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/...re-majors.html
Honestly, with #s like that, it makes it look like EVERY major is saturated and we just need fewer college in general. EVERY major has a significant amount of under-employment.
However, what I will say, is that I have experience in trying to downgrade educational requirements for a job, and it was one of the biggest career mistakes of my life. The non-college graduates could NOT handle the work; they crashed and burned and I almost got fired for costing my employer a lot of money. Even though the skills were about 11th-12th grade level in my opinion, what was clear to me is that the entire education system is not working well. A high school diploma means nothing. At least a college diploma indicates they can think a bit.
Last edited by redguard57; 07-12-2022 at 04:39 PM..
No, as of now, student loans are not able to be discharged in bankruptcy.
But there is a provision that if someone becomes totally and permanently disabled, then their loans can be discharged (only for certain kinds of student loans.)
And there is a list of specific schools, where if you attended one, you may be able to get your loans forgiven.
Not entirely true, you can file chapter 7 with student loans its just incredibly difficult. You'd have to have a separate adversary hearing (essentially to see if your student loans qualify) and then you would have to prove undue hardship (a few circuits use totality of circumstances instead) which is a 3 prong test using the Brunner Test. The test is incredibly broad and open to interpretation.
Loan forgiveness? What if I were campaigning for credit card loan forgiveness; how would you react to that? You borrowed the money but now don't want to pay it back.
The most I would agree with is an interest rate reduction. How about 2% on all existing loans?
40+ years of college costs vastly outpacing inflation, especially since 2008, and the entire society screaming in the ears of young people that college is THE ticket to the mIddle class. Certainly may parents gave me this propaganda my whole life.
Despite all of that, people here you are just like "meh, let the kids eat cake."
Take away degree requirements for jobs if that's how you feel. Maybe then I'll agree that we should do nothing about this issue.
40+ years of college costs vastly outpacing inflation, especially since 2008, and the entire society screaming in the ears of young people that college is THE ticket to the mIddle class. Certainly may parents gave me this propaganda my whole life.
Despite all of that, people here you are just like "meh, let the kids eat cake."
Take away degree requirements for jobs if that's how you feel. Maybe then I'll agree that we should do nothing about this issue.
Yet every year kids sign up for debt. Are people that stupid? Sure; if you are a straight A student entering into a STEM program debt might be viable. If you are a "d" student borrowing for a gender studies program maybe you ought to rethink it.
Yet every year kids sign up for debt. Are people that stupid? Sure; if you are a straight A student entering into a STEM program debt might be viable. If you are a "d" student borrowing for a gender studies program maybe you ought to rethink it.
Gender studies is a canard. 0.4% of all degrees awarded did not drive the debt problem. I will repeat: ALL the area, ethnic, and gender studies majors combined add up to 0.4% of degrees awarded per year.
Of the 2.0 million bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2019–20, some 58 percent were concentrated in six fields of study: business (387,900 degrees); health professions and related programs (257,300 degrees); social sciences and history (161,200 degrees); engineering (128,300 degrees); biological and biomedical sciences (126,600 degrees); and psychology (120,000 degrees).
The majors that have grown in the past 15 years are overwhelmingly in the health sciences space. NOT the social sciences and liberal or fine arts. Most of those are in decline. The popular majors are the ones driving the debt. Not tiny niche ones that are political bugaboos. https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=37
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