Should there be genetic testing and counseling prior to any gender reassignment procedures? (ethical, healthcare)
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These are very reputable sources, quite unlike the OP's link to "The Daily Mail", a notorious British tabloid "scandal rag" with notoriously low journalistic standards.
In fairness to the OP, in another post he gave a link to the same story published in the London Times. That post was, unfortunately, deleted due to the fact that Great Debates asks for more than merely posting links (or memes or videos) to serve as a substitute for posting one's own debate points.
To all participants in this topic: Please let us not have a link vs link battle here. If you have something new to add to this debate (which has already taken several other forms in various threads on this forum), then the debate can continue. Otherwise, reiteration of the same points will render this topic redundant and subject to closure.
I’ve read some articles stating gender isn’t as simple as XX or XY. OK, then how about a test and counseling prior to administering any medications and surgical procedures before making a permanent life altering procedure that cannot be reversed entirely? Some young people may be just confused or have other issues unrelated to the XX XY variations. Recently there have been cases of people who had gender reassignment surgery and went on to regret their decision with some even looking into filing a lawsuit against the professionals who helped them to get the procedure they asked for. At the very least there should be a standard procedure medical professionals should follow before going to hormone replacement and surgery procedures to ensure this is what the patient truly wants or if their issue is psychological
Just let people dress how they want then they won't feel compelled to mutilate their genitalia nor get counseling. Surely by now, every one knows there's more than one gender. If they don't, what rock have they been living under. XXY people are actually highly respected in Indigenous cultures. Folks just need accept whatever the gender someone identifies with.
I want to address the story told by Grandview Gloria about the cousin who, as a woman, was a perfect 10 but as a man, has apparently failed to impress... There's something very offputting about the way you speak of this, but in a way that...I know people who would say the exact same things but who would not have the framework to see how incredibly disrespectful it is, as I doubt that you do.
Part of it looks like envy, envy of what the cousin was pre-transition, and anger that they'd throw away something that YOU place value on, even if they didn't. Similar flavor to if someone had the acumen and connections to enter into a career that would make them quickly rich, but chose instead to be a musician or an artist even if it caused them poverty...like, how dare they not share your priorities?
Thing is, though, you don't own someone else's life nor is there any reason for another person to especially care about your judgments and opinions. Talking like one of the characters from the show, "The Gilded Age" does not bestow you with some kind of right to tell anyone what to do with any gifts bestowed upon them, wanted or unwanted. America has always made big talk of being a "free country"...and freedom, liberty, these things mean the right of an adult to make their own choices and sometimes...yeah, that includes the freedom to fail, or make choices that you think are bad ones, or even to make objectively poor choices... We all have that freedom, and can use it for better or for worse, and it's one of the most amazing things about the few concepts held sacred, as the things that define our "culture" such as it is, here.
I have mixed feelings though, on trans issues overall. I know a bunch of trans people, more, I'm sure, than most people know...and I like them very much and want to be caring and supportive to them. I have not met one who regretted any part of their transition, up to and including all surgeries. All the same, I do remember a time in my life that did feel "simpler" where this just didn't seem to be a thing that most people around me were thinking of, or talking about. I'm sure that plenty of would-be trans people were simply closeted or never had the option of living as their genuine selves illuminated for their consideration. I am sure that there were probably suicides that could have been prevented, but I never knew any. The expansion of possibilities for gender expression DOES feel kind of jarring and new and uncomfortable. I can admit to that. But... I'm willing to be uncomfortable. Because at the end of the day, it's not my life, now is it?
One thing I can tell ya for free though? I am aware, from being a confidante and friend to two people all the way through the full process of transition over the span of a few years... I know the details of the surgeries, of the recovery, of what it takes. I think that for most of us cis-types, the very notion of somebody taking a scalpel to our yee-hoos and hoo-has makes us wanna hide under the bed like a spooked cat. To say nothing, again, of the photos I saw or descriptions of dilators and pain, involved in the recovery process. My word! So my conclusion after bearing cringing yet supportive witness to what my friends have gone through, is this... Who on EARTH would put themselves through all of this, if it were not an existential need for them?
I dunno, Sonic. Your post assumes we always know what's best for us, right?
Is it ever possible for an educated observer to have a look-see and say, "Oh, there's your problem, right there. Let's have a talk about that for a while?"
What if the problem was "I can never be happy unless everyone else sees me as what I think I am."? That external locus of control is a common issue for many who don't struggle with intersex or sexual identity. And it certainly is an issue that seems to need to be resolved for the intersex and sexual identity crowd as well.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate because I lost a childhood friend to suicide over this issue. In spite of finding and reading what I can about this complicated issue I'm at a loss to state definitively what is best. All I know is that his life was problematic long before the issue was broached and only got worse with each successive surgery.
There were many consultations with knowledgeable professionals. Guess I wonder how anyone could ever answer the question for anyone else. It's one of those things, like you say, where you need to make a decision and then live with it.
The problem, as I see it, is what about that monkey mind that nags something still isn't right?
(Maybe it is as simple as finding that community of people to affirm you Xs and Ys be damned.) Sounds like Szasz, doesn't it? Perhaps that's where we're headed?
I’ve read some articles stating gender isn’t as simple as XX or XY. OK, then how about a test and counseling prior to administering any medications and surgical procedures before making a permanent life altering procedure that cannot be reversed entirely? Some young people may be just confused or have other issues unrelated to the XX XY variations. Recently there have been cases of people who had gender reassignment surgery and went on to regret their decision with some even looking into filing a lawsuit against the professionals who helped them to get the procedure they asked for. At the very least there should be a standard procedure medical professionals should follow before going to hormone replacement and surgery procedures to ensure this is what the patient truly wants or if their issue is psychological
To answer the question- "Should there be genetic testing and counseling....."
I have a very simplistic response to this, but it's well rooted. Our country was founded on the principle- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
I fully believe that an individual has the unalienable right to pursue their own happiness, free from undue overreach by others. That was our countries declaration. It is not up to me, or any form of our government, to decide what is right (or wrong) for an individual. Their actions harm no one. They are free to choose. Whether its the right choice is immaterial, how they arrive at that choice is immaterial.
I am not supportive of creating burdens, or tests, or required counseling. The only thing that I could possibly support would be an age of consent requirement which should be decided by the states, not unlike the patchwork of legal age to marry found throughout the states.
Last edited by Threerun; 11-08-2022 at 02:32 PM..
Reason: Clarity
I dunno, Sonic. Your post assumes we always know what's best for us, right?
Is it ever possible for an educated observer to have a look-see and say, "Oh, there's your problem, right there. Let's have a talk about that for a while?"
What if the problem was "I can never be happy unless everyone else sees me as what I think I am."? That external locus of control is a common issue for many who don't struggle with intersex or sexual identity. And it certainly is an issue that seems to need to be resolved for the intersex and sexual identity crowd as well.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate because I lost a childhood friend to suicide over this issue. In spite of finding and reading what I can about this complicated issue I'm at a loss to state definitively what is best. All I know is that his life was problematic long before the issue was broached and only got worse with each successive surgery.
There were many consultations with knowledgeable professionals. Guess I wonder how anyone could ever answer the question for anyone else. It's one of those things, like you say, where you need to make a decision and then live with it.
The problem, as I see it, is what about that monkey mind that nags something still isn't right?
(Maybe it is as simple as finding that community of people to affirm you Xs and Ys be damned.) Sounds like Szasz, doesn't it? Perhaps that's where we're headed?
It's not so much that my post assumes that we all know what's best for us, as it's a vague sense of respect that I don't expect any outside person to definitively know who we are or what we need, more that the individual does...so long as they give it as much thought and consideration as they will be able to do.
I do think that there should be a time period for reflection and consideration, especially with the young. Though I would add that such requirements I wish were required for other very permanent acts like getting a tattoo or other body modification (other than small piercings that can easily heal up) and ESPECIALLY...and boy is this a big one...having kids. I mean, we'll let kids have kids. It's like meh, who cares, by all means go ahead and have a child and get the responsibility to destroy the life of an innocent human being by trying to raise them when you haven't got the tools to do so.
But I digress.
Actually you have a point about community. I belong to a community like that and we have quite a few perfectly happy trans people in it. People who have told me how life altering, in a positive way, their transitions have been. But honestly for some individuals, I suspect that they may go down this road and perhaps this is NOT the solution that makes life livable for them, because perhaps there ISN'T one. I don't know.
What I do know, however, is that my own personal sense that something is new and a bit uncomfortable, as a concept and a thing to be around with other people in the world...my bit of adjustment and unease...it doesn't give me any right to tell another person what to do with their own life.
And with the...I dunno, dozen or more trans people that I've met... The transition is in fact the cure. They settled happily into their new selves feeling like the person they always wanted to be. With the slight possible exception of one young trans man, who had the unfortunate experience of going prematurely bald on the T hormones he was taking, which certainly wasn't what he had in mind. /shrug
To answer the question- "Should there be genetic testing and counseling....."
I have a very simplistic response to this, but it's well rooted. Our country was founded on the principle- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
I fully believe that an individual has the unalienable right to pursue their own happiness, free from undue overreach by others. That was our countries declaration. It is not up to me, or any form of our government, to decide what is right (or wrong) for an individual. Their actions harm no one. They are free to choose. Whether its the right choice is immaterial, how they arrive at that choice is immaterial.
I am not supportive of creating burdens, or tests, or required counseling. The only thing that I could possibly support would be an age of consent requirement which should be decided by the states, not unlike the patchwork of legal age to marry found throughout the states.
That would be swell if it kept those who aren't involved in any way out of it. But the way it's been going seems to insist that those who aren't involved must change views, attitudes, language and beliefs. They must support, even monetarily via taxes, and validate even though they think the whole thing is ridiculous. I'm all for an adult individual being able to "pursue their own happiness" as long as it doesn't effect others or society in general.
It's always going to be a problem with other people HAVE TO DO SOMETHING in order to make a person happy. Imagine Dr's not wanting to do sex change surgeries anymore because they discover that it's really really harmful. They couldn't be forced to do it so then what? Make laws that they must? It's like that now but in a bunch of smaller ways for a bunch of other people who DON'T WANT to share a space with a biological man or call an obvious woman "he/him"...etc
That would be swell if it kept those who aren't involved in any way out of it. But the way it's been going seems to insist that those who aren't involved must change views, attitudes, language and beliefs. They must support, even monetarily via taxes, and validate even though they think the whole thing is ridiculous. I'm all for an adult individual being able to "pursue their own happiness" as long as it doesn't effect others or society in general.
It's always going to be a problem with other people HAVE TO DO SOMETHING in order to make a person happy. Imagine Dr's not wanting to do sex change surgeries anymore because they discover that it's really really harmful. They couldn't be forced to do it so then what? Make laws that they must? It's like that now but in a bunch of smaller ways for a bunch of other people who DON'T WANT to share a space with a biological man or call an obvious woman "he/him"...etc
I don't know if I can parse out all the emotional issues with your post, but I will try.
1. What 'taxes' are being levied that you describe? I'm not aware of any. Do you have a basis for this assertion? As far as I know it is an elective procedure and some insurance may cover it, some don't.
2. What effect on society are you referring to? Your vision of it?
3. I'm not aware of any physicians or surgeons that are 'compelled' to perform an elective procedure. Do you have evidence to support this claim?
4. It appears you do not wish to share 'space' with a human that doesn't conform to your biological definitions- is that right?
5. He/Him and 'pronouns' are simple. Ask the person for their name and refer to them by their name. It's kinda not difficult.
I want to address the story told by Grandview Gloria about the cousin who, as a woman, was a perfect 10 but as a man, has apparently failed to impress... There's something very offputting about the way you speak of this, but in a way that...I know people who would say the exact same things but who would not have the framework to see how incredibly disrespectful it is, as I doubt that you do.
Part of it looks like envy, envy of what the cousin was pre-transition, and anger that they'd throw away something that YOU place value on, even if they didn't. Similar flavor to if someone had the acumen and connections to enter into a career that would make them quickly rich, but chose instead to be a musician or an artist even if it caused them poverty...like, how dare they not share your priorities?
Thing is, though, you don't own someone else's life nor is there any reason for another person to especially care about your judgments and opinions. Talking like one of the characters from the show, "The Gilded Age" does not bestow you with some kind of right to tell anyone what to do with any gifts bestowed upon them, wanted or unwanted. America has always made big talk of being a "free country"...and freedom, liberty, these things mean the right of an adult to make their own choices and sometimes...yeah, that includes the freedom to fail, or make choices that you think are bad ones, or even to make objectively poor choices... We all have that freedom, and can use it for better or for worse, and it's one of the most amazing things about the few concepts held sacred, as the things that define our "culture" such as it is, here.
I have mixed feelings though, on trans issues overall. I know a bunch of trans people, more, I'm sure, than most people know...and I like them very much and want to be caring and supportive to them. I have not met one who regretted any part of their transition, up to and including all surgeries. All the same, I do remember a time in my life that did feel "simpler" where this just didn't seem to be a thing that most people around me were thinking of, or talking about. I'm sure that plenty of would-be trans people were simply closeted or never had the option of living as their genuine selves illuminated for their consideration. I am sure that there were probably suicides that could have been prevented, but I never knew any. The expansion of possibilities for gender expression DOES feel kind of jarring and new and uncomfortable. I can admit to that. But... I'm willing to be uncomfortable. Because at the end of the day, it's not my life, now is it?
One thing I can tell ya for free though? I am aware, from being a confidante and friend to two people all the way through the full process of transition over the span of a few years... I know the details of the surgeries, of the recovery, of what it takes. I think that for most of us cis-types, the very notion of somebody taking a scalpel to our yee-hoos and hoo-has makes us wanna hide under the bed like a spooked cat. To say nothing, again, of the photos I saw or descriptions of dilators and pain, involved in the recovery process. My word! So my conclusion after bearing cringing yet supportive witness to what my friends have gone through, is this... Who on EARTH would put themselves through all of this, if it were not an existential need for them?
In fact, there are plenty of de-transitioners, but... let's just say they don't receive much support and are somewhat "hidden" from the mainstream. Vilified, even. A few go the complete opposite direction, opposing all things transgender. You could argue they were never trans (although many are LGBT and/or gender non-conforming). Then you have those who are forced to de-transition due to things out of their control. I will just say that there is no one "right" way to transition, as long as it's right for YOU. Those who opt for SRS are a minority within a minority.
In fact, there are plenty of de-transitioners, but... let's just say they don't receive much support and are somewhat "hidden" from the mainstream. Vilified, even. A few go the complete opposite direction, opposing all things transgender. You could argue they were never trans (although many are LGBT and/or gender non-conforming). Then you have those who are forced to de-transition due to things out of their control. I will just say that there is no one "right" way to transition, as long as it's right for YOU. Those who opt for SRS are a minority within a minority.
I don't vilify anybody nor believe that anybody should be vilified.
And I do think that experts should continue to study these matters, compile information, make recommendations and best practices.... I just really don't like studies that are done for a purpose of confirming a bias, or rules made to prop up a religious or cultural position, in a way that imposes it on others. Like I said, despite being fully in support of trans people's rights to live their lives free from vilification, persecution or harm, I sometimes personally find it a little bit jarring or uncomfortable. Even just adjusting my own mental concept of someone when I know them before and after changes...but this is MY problem. Never should it be a driver for how anyone is treated or what rights, protections or obligations they have. I don't believe that my ~feelings~ have the jurisdiction to be shaping real world rules. Hell, I don't even let such things shape the way I try to treat others, which is just simply with consideration and respect.
But that is part of my own ethics, too.
There are foods that repulse me, but I will never use that as justification to say to someone who enjoys it, "Ew, yuck, gross, how can you eat that?"
There are subjects that bore me to tears but someone else has every right to be passionate about it.
There are insecurities I might have in a relationship that I do not use to behave in controlling or jealous ways towards my partner, whom I trust.
Some discomforts are just one's own problem to deal with. Being a little uncomfortable ain't gonna kill ya.
And that's part of the problem with the "trans debate" is that in my opinion, a lot of people are just trying to cherry pick "science" (from among many sources that in fact just serve different biases) to prop up their desire, truly and deep down, to treat their FEELINGS as grounds for a declaration of right or wrong.
If the scientific community at large studies the matter and finds that many who transition wish to later de-transition, or that transitioning is more likely to cause harm than to resolve a negative state that is causing harm, then THEY need to compile their evidence and use it to inform treatment, and to counsel people who need it.
But frankly, I don't believe that feelings...or religion, much to the chagrin of the very devoted...get to be the ultimate force that shapes objective truth and reality, or that someone who works in a scientific vocation should be permitted to bend the content of their work around their feelings or their faith. In other words, if in time and with much compilation of actual data, results prove a conclusion that does not align with what one might WISH for from a feelings or faith perspective, no, medical professionals should not disregard the upsetting science in favor of their faith...or if they do, then perhaps they should switch their vocation.
There are people whose faith dictates that they avoid technology. There are people whose faith dictates that they must avoid modern medicine and let their lives and deaths be simply in "God's hands." At the extreme. OK? And none of them should be trying to hang a sign and open up shop as doctors, on the premise that they will simply pray for your good health.
I know that's an outrageous piece of hyperbole but sometimes one needs must deploy the ridiculous to explain a point or a position. If an overwhelming body of experts in a scientific community presently stand behind a particular approach, I'm not going to call it a political conspiracy just because it perhaps doesn't align with my feelings or faith. Not that such is the case for me with regard to faith, but just saying.
How this circles back to the OP, is that I don't really see any problem with genetic testing or "counseling" (what kind? There's already a lot of required counseling. Nobody in the US just pops in for a quick gender reassignment with no counseling)...this is the involvement of medical professionals in a medical process. If someone needs to transition as much as they will tell you that they do, then no "counseling" is going to change their minds about it.
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