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There are several reasons why I'm averse to having kids:
1) Financial. With cost of living skyrocketing, many people are just able to get by alone. Adding 1-2 kids on top of it makes it harder.
2) Time. It's a 2nd job. You give up a lot of leisure and it's harder to fit things into your schedule
3) Having kids makes it harder to travel. Harder to move, if you want a better; you could still move, but displacing your children. (If you and your partner separate, you may have to be in the same state for 18+ years so that both parents can see the child).
4) Genetics. One may have illnesses (mental and physical) in their family's DNA that they don't want to risk passing on.
5) Is this a world we want to raise kids in? Granted, people have expressed this sentiment in past generation and still had kids anyway. Maybe the future will be much better, but the past few years, at least for NA/EU, it doesn't look good at the moment.
6) There's a possibility that once your children grows up, they all move to the other side of the country and rarely visit. Imagine starting a family just to be alone 30 years later.
7) It makes separation much more difficult. People may need to stay in bad marriages longer than they need to. They may have to pay child support for 20 years for a child they only see 1 day a week.
8) Sleep deprivation, and mental exhaustion in general.
Each of these reasons are self-contained. They are not interconnected where fixing 1 of them improves all of them. Even if 3-4 of these reasons aren't issues, that doesn't erase the other 4-5.
Have never had the urge, so none of those things would be part of my decision - it was basically already born in me not to reproduce -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
9) The world has more than enough people. I'm not even one of those global warming alarmists. I just don't see the point of cities with millions of people. Maybe if I lived in the country or a small town I'd feel different.
10) I know many people who have a bad relationship with their grown adult children. Some don't even speak to each other. All that sacrifice raising a kid for nothing.
11) If you need children to make your life "happier", more "worthwhile", or "fulfilled", maybe it's you who are being "self-gratified".
I had a female friend tell me I should have kids so I would have someone that loved me - I thought that was weird. Hey I already love me -so. Yea and her kids don't speak to her -
Last edited by Mike from back east; 01-13-2023 at 01:20 PM..
Reason: Merged 2:1
People who want children, are under no obligation to justify their choices, either to themselves or to their kinfolk or to society overall. They may wish to optimize the timing or to settle their personal/financial lives first, but the general direction of their wishes is fundamentally aligned with what humanity is "supposed" to do. There's no need for pro/con lists.
The utility of such lists is for people who are skeptical of reproduction, but who find themselves at a loss to cement their convictions, or who wish to overcome their skepticism with attempts at rationalization. This happens whenever we make odd or controversial choices.
So for example, suppose that I'm an atheist, but find myself living in a community that is devoutly Christian. Should I "convert" to Christianity? I'd make a list of pros and cons. The cons would be that I fundamentally disbelieve that it is not the case, that the material universe is utterly all that there is, or ever could be. The pro is that my peers would respect me more. There would be natural business-connections or social-connections in church. Easier to meet women. Easier to hobnob with public officials or leading businessmen. Access to charity, should I fall on hard times. Maybe a weekly bridge-game in the church basement, ski trips, golf. A support network. And something to do. Eventually I might dip a proverbial toe into Christianity.. and who knows, perhaps decades later, I'll come to enjoy it and to partake of it sincerely?
Well, that's the power of conformity. Nonconformists get shunned, ostracized, and discriminated against. In less civilized times, one might be burned at the stake. Fortunately, having unorthodox reproductive choices and religion is not likely to have such dire consequences nowadays but there is pressure to conform regardless. I suspect a lot of people just get along to go along, so to speak. No doubt there's plenty of agnostics and atheists in the church pews all across the world who go through the motions so as not to rock the boat. Some can't even admit it to themselves, lest their true feelings come pouring out by accident.
The childfree face a similar dilemma. It's a constant battle to justify not having children as it goes against the grain of what is expected in society. The pressure to have children is immense and is encouraged in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I don't know if having a "list" really matters in the end but maybe it changes some minds. Not to become childfree (though maybe it could) but to become more accepting of childfree people. Luckily, I'm very much an introvert so I really don't care what anyone else thinks.
Educated, financially independent, successful women have lower childbirths than their poor uneducated counterparts. These are facts, not a debate. Many prosperous women have no plans to be the "stay at home mother" that many societies expect.
So yes, it's clear that "kids are not worth it" for these women.
I'm a black American, and I have to think very long and hard about what it means to bring another black American into this world. A world that is not exactly welcoming of such people all the time. Maybe I will get kids one day, maybe I won't but it's not as black and white as you seem to think. We are in a new age where, as you can see above, many women just do not want kids.
I’m staunchly against having kids and racism I’ve experienced as a black American man is a major reason why. I’m not interested in the sacrifices I’d have to make to bring a kid up generally. But to do all that for my child to be treated like a second class citizen because they come from a black person is a real low shot.
Well I, quite to the contrary, resist social pressure with "whatever means are necessary". Rather like my hero Marcus Aurelius, who said something to the effect of "If everybody is doing it, that's reason enough for me to *not* do it!. "Society" operates at no better than a 100 IQ, I have at least 40 points on that (and rather suspect you have similar). So I will not be instructed by the actions of the vulgarity.
As to the disapproval of conformists directed towards me, that is the only worthwhile compliment they can offer me!
I don't resist social pressure; it's more like I'm oblivious to it. No kids, no religion, no dog. I wear what I like no matter what the current trends are. There may have been cliques in my high school, but I didn't realize at the time, and can't think of any when looking back.
I never bother with people I hate...that's why the lady is a tramp!
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,699 posts, read 41,737,988 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major
I don't get it. Why do so many people believe giving their time and energy to a company beats having a family? I mean a person can drop dead tomorrow and the company will simply say a few nice words and repost the position. It's just a job. Trying to turn it into the central point of fulfillment is a recipe for depression as evidenced by the high amounts of depression and anxiety in our society particularly amongst those so called “successful women.”
Family is legacy. At funerals people aren't talking about what the deceased did for a living. They recall the good acts the individual performed and how they cared for their family and touched individuals. At the end of the day your children are your legacy, and in a sense, they are the piece of you that lives on into the next generation. They bring a certain level of happiness that can’t be quantified.
If an individual does not desire children, I understand and I would never shame someone for not wanting kids. I am bothered by a growing movement that is trying to convince folks that it’s better to not have kids. We all do what makes us happy, and most bear the consequences good or bad for our decisions.
Who said those who do not have children want to give their time to a company? I’m childfree but that is not a for sale sign to my company. I work my 40 hours along with a little gig work so I can put my free time into things that give me fulfillment. Working remote allows me to visit with friends and family elsewhere in the country as well as visit a lot of cool places. There are a lot of activities other than child-rearing or work that people can find fulfillment in.
If an individual does not desire children, I understand and I would never shame someone for not wanting kids. I am bothered by a growing movement that is trying to convince folks that it’s better to not have kids. We all do what makes us happy, and most bear the consequences good or bad for our decisions.
Reminds me of the movements like MGTOW or the FIRE. Me first attitude and trying to avoid all stressful situations all the time. Take the easiest road, don't make sacrifices, YOU before others, blah blah blah
Reminds me of the movements like MGTOW or the FIRE. Me first attitude and trying to avoid all stressful situations all the time. Take the easiest road, don't make sacrifices, YOU before others, blah blah blah
Maximum Gross Take-Off Weight?
How is FIRE a placing of oneself before others? On the contrary, it leaves jobs available to younger people, who might not otherwise have gotten a chance for promotion.
And even if we stipulate for argument's sake that a given mode of behavior is somehow a placement of oneself ahead of others, on what basis do we regard such, as being morally reprehensible or deficient?
But this is exactly why childfree people get so defensive is because we are told, over and over, that we ARE obligated to procreate. We get told that by parents and many times by complete strangers. I've been personally told that I "owe" having a baby out of gratefulness to someone who is infertile and wants a child, because they can't and I am able to (not now, of course, although because I look young, now I get the "You can do IVF or adopt" line).
I think this is wonderful, but (and there's always a but, right? lol)I wonder how you might have felt if your daughter had say, joined Scientology, or used drugs, or was arrested for stealing or beat you up or killed someone in a drunk driving accident. A kid that got off track and never got back on it again.
It's the unknown. I didn't want to take a chance and I've seen too many parents who regret their choice. If I knew things would turn out OK, that might have been different. So I guess that makes me the cowardly one. So be it.
But again, my feeling is that we're talking about TWO lives here, not just mine. And knowing myself, how I feel, my circumstances, my depression, my temper, and my own bad childhood, I made a decision and in retrospect I think it was the right one in my case.
Maybe I would have had and raised a school shooter. Maybe I would have had the kid that grew up and made a major contribution to the world. But once you have them, kids are permanent. You can't put them back, for better or worse. There are plenty of other people having kids. I didn't feel the need to roll the dice, especially for something I already knew I didn't want.
Well, she DID use drugs, particularly when the bipolar was kicking in, (but then again, so did I in my 20s) but I don't get the "wonder how you'd feel" bit if all the terrible things you listed had occurred. You'd really wonder? It would be devastating. Obviously. We all know people who have experienced that.
As I said, it is a risk, and one has to weigh the risk/reward balance and their own willingness to take risk or not.
However, I don't think my daughter's decision to never have kids had anything to do with being cowardly or worrying about how they would turn out, although the fact that her meds could harm a fetus does provide a secondary reason. But the main factor in her being childfree is that she just doesn't want them. Never did. That's good enough.
As with most things, we accede to social pressure. Social pressure includes buying a house, joining a religion, keeping a “normal” job and so on. Witness how society pans a trust fund baby or a person who day-trades stocks or sells things on e-bay. The imperative is to have a real job, regardless of how much wealth we wield. Or how renters in America are deprecated. Real upstanding people, at least those over a certain age and income-level, are supposed to be homeowners. Truly affluent people who choose to rent – now they’re just wanton offenders against good economic order, aren’t they? And so on.
To NOT have kids is viewed as louche, unserious, suspect… an outright dereliction of duty. The only exceptions might be gay people or Catholic priests or persons with severe genetic handicap. Everyone else, better get aboard the reproduction train.
This is why the iconoclasts and the rebels have so much soul-searching to do. If I go against decorum and expectations, my reasons better be outright unimpeach able. Anything short of that, and revert to being a thrall of community expectations.
Or...just don't care what society says. I don't give a flip if some random thinks I'm "louche, unserious, suspect", or being "derelict of duty" because I don't have kids. They don't own me, who cares what they think. I also haven't bought a house, hold a "real job" (since so many think being self employed is not a 'real job'. Does it bring me money? Then I guess I have a 'real job' afterall, don't I?) I am religious, but will not join a church.
So. What.
Unless someone is going to pay my way in life, I do as I please. If someone doesn't like that, or views me as less, well, that's their problem, isn't it?
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It would be devastating. Obviously. We all know people who have experienced that.