Haven't the Terrorists Already Won? (Congress, Iraq, enemy, Taliban)

[markg91359]

If Osama Bin Laden's goal when he blew up the Twin Towers was to disrupt normal life in America hasn't he already won?

We can find many examples of what I am talking about. Here are a few:

1. Getting on an airplane has changed dramatically for the worse. I agree that security is necessary to prevent domestic and foreign terrorism. However, I absolutely dread flying anymore. TSA and the rules it has imposed has virtually ruined any pleasure in this form of travel. I now think about every item I am carrying through that security line anymore. I even wear shoes that I know will be easy to take off. I never carry a laptop computer anymore because of the way they scrutinize those things. I make sure my clothes contain no metal. I even try to avoid wearing a belt. Worst of all I dread the mad rush when they almost throw your possessions that have been through the "screener" at you, to keep the line behind you moving. I have things confiscated by TSA agents in the past like a comb that was contained in what look like a knife sheathe.

2. Try getting into a government building anymore. You need I.D. You often have to pass through a metal detector. Again, you have to think about every item you are carrying into that building.

3. Security cameras everywhere. Ever get an itch in a private area of your body that you are afraid to scratch because you think its going to be on camera?

4. Access to some places is now very restricted. I was unable to take a group of scouts to see air traffic control operations at an airport. I am told that since 9/11 this is prohibited. If you take a tour of Hoover Dam or other major sites, you aren't allowed to see things you could have before 9/11. They restrict your movements and again, there is now screening through a metal detector.

5. Budget of billions of dollars to pay for Homeland Security. Much of this was not required before 9/11.

6. Iraq War. Cost of $1 trillion. 4300 American lives. More than half the country felt it was totally unnecessary.

7. Afghanistan War. Maybe we really do need to be there. However, there wasn't a problem before 9/11. Again, this is costing untold billions of dollars and the casualty count among our soldiers is rising.

8. The Patriot Act and other restrictions on personal liberty. Phone tapping by executive order and not by a warrant issued by a court.

I guess all this is a good deal if you work for the government in Homeland Security, DOJ, DOD, etc. For the rest of us taxpayers who have to foot the bill and pay the price for all this it just sucks.

If they killed Osama Bin Laden tomorrow, I think he could claim he lost the battle, but won the war.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by markg91359

If Osama Bin Laden's goal when he blew up the Twin Towers was to disrupt normal life in America hasn't he already won?

We can find many examples of what I am talking about. Here are a few:

1. Getting on an airplane has changed dramatically for the worse. I agree that security is necessary to prevent domestic and foreign terrorism. However, I absolutely dread flying anymore. TSA and the rules it has imposed has virtually ruined any pleasure in this form of travel. I now think about every item I am carrying through that security line anymore. I even wear shoes that I know will be easy to take off. I never carry a laptop computer anymore because of the way they scrutinize those things. I make sure my clothes contain no metal. I even try to avoid wearing a belt. Worst of all I dread the mad rush when they almost throw your possessions that have been through the "screener" at you, to keep the line behind you moving. I have things confiscated by TSA agents in the past like a comb that was contained in what look like a knife sheathe.

2. Try getting into a government building anymore. You need I.D. You often have to pass through a metal detector. Again, you have to think about every item you are carrying into that building.

3. Security cameras everywhere. Ever get an itch in a private area of your body that you are afraid to scratch because you think its going to be on camera?

4. Access to some places is now very restricted. I was unable to take a group of scouts to see air traffic control operations at an airport. I am told that since 9/11 this is prohibited. If you take a tour of Hoover Dam or other major sites, you aren't allowed to see things you could have before 9/11. They restrict your movements and again, there is now screening through a metal detector.

5. Budget of billions of dollars to pay for Homeland Security. Much of this was not required before 9/11.

6. Iraq War. Cost of $1 trillion. 4300 American lives. More than half the country felt it was totally unnecessary.

7. Afghanistan War. Maybe we really do need to be there. However, there wasn't a problem before 9/11. Again, this is costing untold billions of dollars and the casualty count among our soldiers is rising.

8. The Patriot Act and other restrictions on personal liberty. Phone tapping by executive order and not by a warrant issued by a court.

I guess all this is a good deal if you work for the government in Homeland Security, DOJ, DOD, etc. For the rest of us taxpayers who have to foot the bill and pay the price for all this it just sucks.

If they killed Osama Bin Laden tomorrow, I think he could claim he lost the battle, but won the war.

First of all, I was in the WTC on 9/11 and then returned there to work for a few years, and while I see some change, it isn't all THAT drastic. I've flown a number of times--I enjoy it far more than I did before 9/11 since I no longer have a fear of death, and I didn't find airport security all that onerous.

Where the heck were you that you could get into a government building-or pretty much any corporate building--without ID before 9/11? Since 1993 most buildings had upgraded their security, at least in the NY metro area. Geez, at the WTC you couldn't get a pizza delivered upstairs--you had to go down 80 floors or whatever to pick it up from the guy.

Yes, security cameras have definitely increased. In some places, they were already there. You couldn't scratch your ***** at the WTC without being on camera before 9/11, either. Fat lot of good that did, huh?

As for the site restrictions, that is just sad, but necessary. The results of risk assessments, blast analyses, etc., all have to be taken into consideration now from a "what would I do if I were a terrorist" perspective.

The Patriot Act isn't necessarily bad if it's not abused. Good luck with that.

Won't even go into the wars--that's a whole animal unto itself...

[texdav]

No as they have losss nmbers far beyond anyhting we ca imagine especailly in per centages. If they had won you would have seen more 9-111 type terrorist attacks. It must be pretty miserable to be in Ben Laden's shoes now.If you judge war by your standard we loss WWII before we ever got into it. Afaganistan was lijke the hornets ness with the hornets being those that actual attcked on 9-11.

[jtur88]

Of course. Why was this not obvious to everyone. In September 01 it was not the terrorists who closed the stock exchange for a week---it was the SEC. It wasnt terrorists who canceled major league baseball games for two weeks, it was MLB. It wasnt terrorists who grounded all airline flights for a couple of days, it was the FAA. Is wasn't terrorists who passed the Patriot Act, it was the US Congress.

The war lasted less than an hour, and the terrorists won, with a loss of only 19 men. The US government then started another war, and the first victim was the American people, whose country was occupied by new terrorists, and the American people surrendered immediately. So two separate wars were conducted by different terrorist groups in a matter of days, and the American people lost both of them.

[X-Ray-X]

Interesting points. One thing I find rather strange is that the US has not captured Bin Laden yet. I know that the military has captured or killed many of the leaders of Al-Qeada but capturing Bin Laden would be a huge idealogical victory for the US.

With all of the latest technology available to the military I find it hard to believe that they cannot locate him. It almost makes one think that for some reason the powers that be in this country want him alive.

The day that I first got the idea that Al-Qeada had perhaps achieved it's objectives is when I took my family to visit the Statue of Liberty and we were not allowed to enter the statue because of security concerns.

I think that it is completely possible for the US military to capture Bin Laden and then get serious in Afghanistan and Iraq and deal the Taliban and Al-Qeada the crushing blow that they deserve. For some reason that was not the objective of the Bush administration and sadly it does not seem to be the objective of the Obama administration either.

[swagger]

Originally Posted by markg91359

1. Getting on an airplane has changed dramatically for the worse. I agree that security is necessary to prevent domestic and foreign terrorism. However, I absolutely dread flying anymore. TSA and the rules it has imposed has virtually ruined any pleasure in this form of travel. I now think about every item I am carrying through that security line anymore. I even wear shoes that I know will be easy to take off. I never carry a laptop computer anymore because of the way they scrutinize those things. I make sure my clothes contain no metal. I even try to avoid wearing a belt. Worst of all I dread the mad rush when they almost throw your possessions that have been through the "screener" at you, to keep the line behind you moving. I have things confiscated by TSA agents in the past like a comb that was contained in what look like a knife sheathe.

I fly occasionally, and while I think that most of the procedures put in place are a pain in the butt and do little to nothing to increase anybody's safety, they're not THAT big of a deal. My biggest complaint is that during layovers, you have to wait in the security line if you just want to go out for a smoke.

Originally Posted by markg91359

2. Try getting into a government building anymore. You need I.D.

Huh? Never experienced that.

Originally Posted by markg91359

3. Security cameras everywhere. Ever get an itch in a private area of your body that you are afraid to scratch because you think its going to be on camera?

Nope; I'm not that self-conscious. If I have an itch, I'm going to scratch it. I really don't care if someone in a little room getting paid to stare at a dozen TV screen sees it - and neither do they.

Originally Posted by markg91359

4. Access to some places is now very restricted. I was unable to take a group of scouts to see air traffic control operations at an airport. I am told that since 9/11 this is prohibited.

This sort of thing does annoy me. My girlfriend and I homeschool her two boys, and there are a lot of interesting places that we can't take them now due to "security" issues.

Originally Posted by markg91359

5. Budget of billions of dollars to pay for Homeland Security. Much of this was not required before 9/11.

The formation of the DHS was a power grab. We didn't need an entire new executive department setup - just a little more cooperation between existing agencies.

Originally Posted by markg91359

6. Iraq War. Cost of $1 trillion. 4300 American lives. More than half the country felt it was totally unnecessary.

Nothing to do with 9/11. I really don't know why people harp on that - Bush never connected the two. Hussein was violating the terms of the cease-fire agreement daily, and often taking shots at the planes patrolling the no-fly zone. The Europeans didn't have the balls to enforce the agreement that they, us and Hussein entered into. We did.

Originally Posted by markg91359

7. Afghanistan War. Maybe we really do need to be there. However, there wasn't a problem before 9/11.

Um, obviously it was. If it wasn't, then 9/11 wouldn't have happened...

Originally Posted by markg91359

8. The Patriot Act and other restrictions on personal liberty. Phone tapping by executive order and not by a warrant issued by a court.

Name one personal liberty that you've lost due to the PATRIOT Act. As for the wiretaps, a warrant IS required, but can be issued after the fact. My understanding is that this authority is rarely used, and those that use it have their feet held pretty close to the fire when it comes time to explain why they used it.

[Omaha Rocks]

Originally Posted by X-Ray-X

Interesting points. One thing I find rather strange is that the US has not captured Bin Laden yet. I know that the military has captured or killed many of the leaders of Al-Qeada but capturing Bin Laden would be a huge idealogical victory for the US.

With all of the latest technology available to the military I find it hard to believe that they cannot locate him. It almost makes one think that for some reason the powers that be in this country want him alive.

The day that I first got the idea that Al-Qeada had perhaps achieved it's objectives is when I took my family to visit the Statue of Liberty and we were not allowed to enter the statue because of security concerns.

I think that it is completely possible for the US military to capture Bin Laden and then get serious in Afghanistan and Iraq and deal the Taliban and Al-Qeada the crushing blow that they deserve. For some reason that was not the objective of the Bush administration and sadly it does not seem to be the objective of the Obama administration either.

It is my opinion that Bin Laden is long-since dead - as in, years ago dead. Even so, there are hundreds (thousands) of radicals clamoring to take his place.


Did the Radical Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists win? NO. They're goal was to take down The Great Satan. That has not happened.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by X-Ray-X

Interesting points. One thing I find rather strange is that the US has not captured Bin Laden yet. I know that the military has captured or killed many of the leaders of Al-Qeada but capturing Bin Laden would be a huge idealogical victory for the US.
.

Read "1984". Orwell described exactly this mind-bending phenomenon. Emmanuel Goldstein, the archenemy of Big Brother, was kept alive. He was given airtime on the every-day closed-circuit Big Brother propaganda TV feeds, so the people could keep their manipulated hatred of his discredited philosophy fresh in their minds. See, Orwell even predicted MSNBC. The only thing surprising is that the White House and Pentagon were smart enough to play out that highly effective scenario.

If we had allowed Saddam Hussein to keep slipping from our grasp, from spider hole to spider hole, the American people would still be baring their teeth and demanding Iraqi blood.

[Omaha Rocks]

Originally Posted by swagger

Name one personal liberty that you've lost due to the PATRIOT Act. As for the wiretaps, a warrant IS required, but can be issued after the fact. My understanding is that this authority is rarely used, and those that use it have their feet held pretty close to the fire when it comes time to explain why they used it.

You've touched on a VERY important point!

I don't know how many times I've heard people screaming about the Patriot Act stripping them of their personal liberties. But when pressed, they have no idea what the Patriot Act actually is. Nor can they name anything that has changed in their life as a result of it.


But here's a kicker... Take the Internet, for instance. It is now very common for companies to track EVERY website we visit. They then compile a profile, and sell "target" advertising to vendors. Ads specifically tailored to you and me show up on places like Facebook, etc.

And nobody seems to be the least bit alarmed by that.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by swagger

Name one personal liberty that you've lost due to the PATRIOT Act. .

Go to Canada and back on my own recognizance.

Here's a personal anecdote, since you asked for one. My wife is a CHF patient and wears an implanted defibrillator. She had to go to the court house one day to file some documents relating to a property transaction. She cannot be wanded because of the defibrillator. They insisted that she had to be patted down, but there was no female security person on duty that day, so she would have to come back tomorrow!!!

On another occasion, she had a court hearing she had to attend, and had a little penknife in her purse, and was refused entry. She took it outside and put it in a place where she could retrieve it, and came back and and was asked "Where did you put it"? She was told she cannot leave it on court house property (which implies that it could not be left in her car in the courthouse parking lot, either). So she went and got it and walked across the street and put it in the grass on a neighbor's lawn. By merely walking across the street, my wife made America safe..

The Patriot Act, to answer your question, has turned America over to an army of morons who are afraid they will lose their job if they don't go exactly by the book, which by its very nature is pointlessly idiotic, and have absolutely no power to exercise common sense, nor the common sense to exercise.