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and the $80,000 figure is commonly tied to the EV1, from looking around online. i don't see it tied to the Nissan Leaf, which came out about 20 years later. so i'm not finding that information nomander.
and we really aren't a "free market". it's the free-est market, but we're still heavily subsidizing multiple things, picking winners and losers in various areas. oil should cost us far more than it currently does, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that if gas prices were significantly higher (say, double current levels), that people would quickly be switching to diesel vehicles, hybrids, and EVs at a very rapid pace.
You've mentioned this "heavily subsidized" issue quite a few times. Can you give us some facts to back up your claims?
You are hilarious in your speculation of gas prices doubling and what MIGHT occur.
Talk about drifting away from the OP, you take this to new levels of idiocy.
You've mentioned this "heavily subsidized" issue quite a few times. Can you give us some facts to back up your claims?
You are hilarious in your speculation of gas prices doubling and what MIGHT occur.
Talk about drifting away from the OP, you take this to new levels of idiocy.
i already posted a link to an article that talks about the subsidies. it was a hot topic this past summer due to the oil spill. there are subsidies on the platform leases, the drilling, the transportation, the delivery, etc.
as for range axiety. this is a pretty interesting dicussion here:
im just trying to figure out if im reading that article correctly:
"Oil industry officials say that the tax breaks, which average about $4 billion a year according to various government reports, are a bargain for taxpayers. "
so are the subsidizes $4,000,000,000 a year? spread across every gallon of gas used i believe thats only a couple cents a gallon.
im not sure about factoring in "tax breaks." their income tax they pay on profits seems plenty high.
and the "heavily subsidized" comment in the issue you were talking about was just me referring to our government subsidizing various industries. i don't want to overkill on the oil subsidies. "heavily" isn't used in that quote to directly tie to the oil industry. but depending on which subsidies you look at, some are much more significant than others. our government subsidizes lots of things was my point in that particular post.
im just trying to figure out if im reading that article correctly:
"Oil industry officials say that the tax breaks, which average about $4 billion a year according to various government reports, are a bargain for taxpayers. "
so are the subsidizes $4,000,000,000 a year? spread across every gallon of gas used i believe thats only a couple cents a gallon.
im not sure about factoring in "tax breaks." their income tax they pay on profits seems plenty high.
well any tax or tax break spread across the entire population or items is going to look small. since when are you a fan of this type of argument?
how about this part of the article: "Some of the tax breaks date back nearly a century, when they were intended to encourage exploration in an era of rudimentary technology, when costly investments frequently produced only dry holes."?
or this: "Because of one lingering provision from the Tariff Act of 1913, many small and midsize oil companies based in the United States can claim deductions for the lost value of tapped oil fields far beyond the amount the companies actually paid for the oil rights."
or this: "Other tax breaks were born of international politics. In an attempt to deter Soviet influence in the Middle East in the 1950s, the State Department backed a Saudi Arabian accounting maneuver that reclassified the royalties charged by foreign governments to American oil drillers. Saudi Arabia and others began to treat some of the royalties as taxes, which entitled the companies to subtract those payments from their American tax bills. Despite repeated attempts to forbid this accounting practice, companies continue to deduct the payments. The Treasury Department estimates that it will cost $8.2 billion over the next decade."
or this: "Over the last 10 years, oil companies have also been aggressive in using foreign tax havens. Many rigs, like Deepwater Horizon, are registered in Panama or in the Marshall Islands, where they are subject to lower taxes and less stringent safety and staff regulations. American producers have also aggressively exploited the tax code by opening small offices in low-tax countries. A recent study by Martin A. Sullivan, an economist for the trade publication Tax Analysts, found that the five oil drilling companies that had undergone these “corporate inversions” had saved themselves a total of $4 billion in taxes since 1999."
"Transocean — which has approximately 18,000 employees worldwide, including 1,300 in Houston and about a dozen in Zug, Switzerland — has saved $1.8 billion in taxes since moving overseas in 1999, the study found."
"Despite the public anger at the gulf spill, it is far from certain that Congress will eliminate the tax breaks. As recently as 2005, when windfall profits for energy companies prompted even President George W. Bush — a former Texas oilman himself — to publicly call for an end to incentives, the energy bill he and Congress enacted still included $2.6 billion in oil subsidies."
of course, Menendez tried to look like a tough guy but he's a hack too: "Mr. Menendez said he believed the Gulf spill was devastating enough to spur Congress into action. But one notable omission in his bill shows the vast economic reach of the industry. While the legislation would cut many incentives over the next decade, it would not touch the tax breaks for oil refineries, many of which have operations and employees in his home state, New Jersey."
all those figures add up. many people who really get deep into this discussion will start figuring in the costs of international affairs relationships, some of the war costs, etc...that cannot possibly be tied directly to oil but you know deep down that that spending would be less if we didn't have needs for oil from those regions. other interests exist not related to oil as well though, so it's tough to quantify.
bottom line is, we're not paying all the true costs of gasoline and other petroleum products either. i'm not saying that justifies the other subsidies. i'd be fine with getting rid of them all.
well any tax or tax break spread across the entire population or items is going to look small. since when are you a fan of this type of argument?
ill read the rest of the post when i have more time but i figured id address this. im a fan of lowering everyones taxes and simplifying the tax system without any breaks. so im definitely not supporting anyones subsidies but i also dont like to see more money in government hands because that doesnt reduce other people's burden.
anyway, if it really is only a $4 billion subsidy and 2 cents a gallon, it should be easily gotten rid of and wont make a difference. it also doesnt justify spending tons of money subsidizing other "green" energies. how much is spent on ethanol subsidies also? thats ridiculous.
Using your logic EVERYONE in America gets subsidies in one form or another from the government...
So?
And?
???
I liked the discussion URL in #133....
So as long as you drive 40, don't use the heater on high and have no further to go round trip than 80 miles the Leaf is ok....
~ Going 67-68MPH the range the person got was 56 - 70 miles WHOOOHOOOO
~ The heater in the Leaf is crap
So the Leaf is perfect for driving in heavy city traffic where it's not too hot nor not too cool and your round trip will be under 80 miles... Gotcha
At $25 - $35,000 dollars a toy for the rich and the eco-snobs for sure....
yeah, people have some complaints about the heater. but many also responded that they use the "pre-heat" option and it's good. i skipped the 1st model year of the Acura TSX because it was the first model year. People have tons of complains about that car too. These sorts of things work themselves out in subsuquent model years typically.
many people reported ranges of 80-90 with 65-70mph driving on the highway. people sound concerned about very hilly areas, but some reported to have few issues.
NOT ONE person reported running their car down to the "Turtle" mode which is when you're in serious danger of running out of power.
since most of the drivers were reporting conditions in the low 30s and in the 80s, i'd say you're "not too hot, not too cold" comment isn't really reflective of the discussion. sounds like extreme cold would probably not work, but in places where it's 30s in the winter, a driver would be fine.
and yeah, since majority of americans' trips are far fewer than 80 miles, i don't see the concern there.
as for price, i'd say as the price comes down, it makes it even more worth it. I don't see how $25,000 is all that expensive. the chevy cruz isn't much less, but you have to use fuel. so?
ill read the rest of the post when i have more time but i figured id address this. im a fan of lowering everyones taxes and simplifying the tax system without any breaks. so im definitely not supporting anyones subsidies but i also dont like to see more money in government hands because that doesnt reduce other people's burden.
anyway, if it really is only a $4 billion subsidy and 2 cents a gallon, it should be easily gotten rid of and wont make a difference. it also doesnt justify spending tons of money subsidizing other "green" energies. how much is spent on ethanol subsidies also? thats ridiculous.
corn subsidy should go. talk to anyone in the food industry about what that's done to our food. ughh.
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