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“There’s no such thing as alternative medicine. There’s only medicine that works and medicine that doesn’t.” I was answering to this Moderator cut: personal attack.
Last edited by MissingAll4Seasons; 11-08-2013 at 08:40 PM..
Reason: name calling
Id like to tell you a wee story, no two wee stories in fact about my own experiences.... about 25 years ago I found out accidentally that my BP as sky high..so bad I had to attend hospital for eighteen months...
so I was given three different tablets to take daily and monitored, in fact I have it done once a month..... so I took myself off to Yoga classes and before I knew it my BP was coming down to a more healthy rate.... sadly I had to stop because of injury.... so you can see where Im coming from cant you...
Sure, the same thing happened for me. But yoga has been medically confirmed to lower stress and lower blood pressure, just as accupuncture has been medically confirmed to reduce certain kinds of pain. When an "alternative" is scientifically confirmed, then it's simply "medicine that works," to use Dr. Offit's terminology.
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. the second was around the same time when my youngest son started school.. he was a healthy wee boy , but when he got his vaccinations in school he developed a terrible tic all over his body. and face.. it lasted for months and the teachers were very worried about him... but the doctor kept saying to leave it...... thankfully it cleared up but I was advised by doctors to never have him vaccinated again at school... so they knew something had happened .
Ahhh, but they didn't know what the "something" was. It could have been some kind of contamination, something in his food, a coincidental but unrelated disease, even a psychological reaction. Nobody really knows, so making any kind of rule about your personal experience would move it into the realm of quackery. The only true statement you can make about it is "nobody knows."
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so mistakes are made some bigger than others... I was a lot like you , thinking a lot of alternative stuff to help illnesses was quackery, I wasnt into it one bit... but then I started to see the mistakes being made and how we can help ourselves in other ways with exercise. saunas etc. doesnt have to be pills from doctors.
No question that's true. The problem comes when people, for whatever personal reasons, push unscientific and unproven medical views out onto the public, and other people follow them, and some are harmed by it.
Two wee examples come to mind...
Jim Henson, creator of the Muppets, died of a simple and common infection, for want of $20 worth of antibiotics, because he had bought into some weird "alternative" theory that antibiotics weaken the body and that left to its own, his body would heal itself. Tragically his genius was stifled prematurely because he acted irrationally, in the face of compelling medical evidence that he was wrong.
And Steve Jobs, one of the most innovative people of our time, was diagnosed with a rare but highly treatable form of pancreatic cancer, and was told by his medical team that if he acted immediately the success rate for surgically removing the cancer was well over 90%. Instead, he sought "alternative" healing, using fasting and herbs and meditation. Unfortunately, by the time it became obvious that the "alternative" was not working, the cancer has spread to his liver, and now the survivability of his condition had plummeted to 10%. By dint of very high end, and very costly mainstream medicine, including a liver transplant, Jobs managed to squeeze out another couple of years, but that was it. Most oncologists I've read are of the opinion that if he had taken his ohysician's advice at the outset he would likely still be alive. But he was led astray by false beliefs.
If you read Dr. Offit's book, you'll see that he endorses certain "alternative" treatments, because they've been proven to be effective, and makes the case that medically confirmed treatments are no longer really alternatives. They're just good medicine. And also that mainstream medicine that doesn't work is bad medicine. But that telling the difference between the two is almost impossible for any single individual to determine by and for themselves. There are just too many confounding co-factors to be considered. So you have to look to the credentials and track record of the people you're listening to.
Simply saying the opposite of whatever the mainstream says should not be enough to suck people in, but sadly, it does. And the proof of that is the gusher of unscientific misinformation being pumped out on the internet that uneducated and weak minded people latch onto as if it were gospel.
How can one be skeptical of mainstream medicine and not be even MORE skeptical of medical quackery?
It has been a little over a month now since I started distilling my water. I am getting an excellent nights sleep and feel fully rested to the point where that mid-day slump is a thing of the past. I have a wonderful sense of well-being. My BP has dropped to a daily average of 110/70 and that is a 20/10 drop. I have started to lose a little weight and the nicest part is it is coming off my waist. I met with my MD this week who was very happy with the changes and told me to keep up whatever it was I was doing.
It has been a little over a month now since I started distilling my water. I am getting an excellent nights sleep and feel fully rested to the point where that mid-day slump is a thing of the past. I have a wonderful sense of well-being. My BP has dropped to a daily average of 110/70 and that is a 20/10 drop. I have started to lose a little weight and the nicest part is it is coming off my waist.
Oh, come on. Do you really expect anyone else to believe this?
If your distiller company made outlandish claims like this I'm sure they'd be getting a cease and desist order served on them by the FDA in no time at all.
“Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.”
― Richard P. Feynman
It is not my intention, nor do I have any interest in bullying anyone. My mission is education.
If you read the article you'll see that the recommended maximum fluoride level in drinking water was not lowered because of any mistakes, but simply because the overall picture has changed in the 68 years since public water supply fluoridation was started. Now there are other sources of fluoride added. As the article clearly states:
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"The report of discoloration has been going up over the years," said Dr. Robert Barsley, a professor at the LSU Health Sciences Center School of Dentistry. "It is not the water that's causing this by any means. It's the extra fluoride products - toothpaste, mouthwash - that people are using. And people want nice white teeth so they brush three times a day."
The reason I keep pushing back against anecdotal stories is because they are at the root of the False Causation Fallacy which is so foundational to medical quackery, and which is such a big part of people's personal disconnect with real science.
Succinctly and formally stated: Correlation does not imply causation. or "Non Causa Pro Causa." In other words, just because you did A, and then B happened doesn't mean that A caused B. Drinking distilled water and then losing weight does not mean that drinking distilled water caused the weight loss. The two could be correlated in time, but there may actually be no causality at all. It could be total coincidence. It could be observational error. It could be the placebo effect. It could even be delusional. To determine if there is any causality involved takes a far more sophisticated investigation than merely observing that A happened first and then B happened, "so A must have caused B."
And yet the mind rejects that fundamental truth in favor of a more primitive, more Cartesian relationship with the world. "The rooster crows, and then the sun comes up, every time. The rooster must have something to do with making the sun come up. All hail the power of the Rooster!"
Like it or not, that's how we are hardwired to understand the world around us, in terms of cause and effect. So we are easily fooled. "I opened the window, and the room got colder, so I conclude that opening the window causes the cold to come in." It sure seems that way, doesn't it? Yet if we take a more detached view of what we observed, and compare it with the scientific knowledge accumulated by many thousands of scientists over the centuries, using ever more sophisticated studies, it's not long before we arrive at a much more sophisticated conclusion, that what really happened was that opening the window allowed (rather than caused) the natural thermodynamic process of heat flowing from a warmer area to a colder area to speed up, so that the room temperature got colder within a noticeable time frame. In simple lay terms, the heat was allowed out, rather than the cold being let in. But notice how common it is for people to say "Don't let the cold in!"
Here are some explanations of the False Causation Fallacy, which is so closely associated with many quack medical claims...
I have no interest in promoting any device or method for good health. I have no hidden agenda other than the truth. What would I gain by fabrication?
On the other side of the coin let's look at an antagonist who hawks the fluoride posts and with outlandishly long posts attempts to defend the fluoride industry. This individual seems to have a vested interest in preserving the fluoride agenda with so much zeal one would think he/she is being paid by the industry.
Every link I have posted here has featured a professional, a doctor, a doctor of dentistry, a PhD, or other person of character and credentials. Who is this person who attacks these professionals? This poster is a nobody, no degree, no experience, and yet a lot of pent up frustration that he/she pours out against anyone who opposes fluorides. Now that this poster has nothing to offer he/she attacks the members of CD.
The bigger question here is not about fluorides but that the masses are being force medicated without their consent and for many without their knowledge. This is a violation of our basic rights as Americans.
I only suggest that the viewer look at both sides and judge for themselves.
Here's a little video about distilled water. Towards the end of the video you will see Dr. George Cromack show the inside of a distiller that was used for one week. That is the stuff you are drinking when you drink tap water.
Another issue here is the green one. Try to imagine the harm done to our environment by plastic water bottles. The cost of bottled water is more than that of gasoline. A distiller costs about $250 and would pay for itself in a short time. This would also provide an end to plastic water bottles for you and your family.
I have no interest in promoting any device or method for good health. I have no hidden agenda other than the truth. What would I gain by fabrication?
It's hard to say, and I really don't presume to judge. Perhaps you're just misguided. But in any case you're seriously out in the weeds, in the extreme minority of opinion on this. And since what you post is, in my view, dangerous to people's health, according to an overwhelming consensus of medical opinion that I'm aware of, you deserve to face vigorous rebuttal.
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On the other side of the coin let's look at an antagonist who hawks the fluoride posts and with outlandishly long posts attempts to defend the fluoride industry. This individual seems to have a vested interest in preserving the fluoride agenda with so much zeal one would think he/she is being paid by the industry.
That's another common debate fallacy, one that people who do not have credible evidence to support their positions like to pull out. "You agree with the EXPERTS :EEK: so you must be a paid stooge!" Sorry, no, I'm just an independent thinker with no axe to grind at all, except for being resolutely, almost violently opposed to gross stupidity.
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Every link I have posted here has featured a professional, a doctor, a doctor of dentistry, a PhD, or other person of character and credentials. Who is this person who attacks these professionals?
I'll answer that, since you seem to be aiming your criticism at me. I'm an intelligent, highly educated, and very well-read professional who abhors the way adherents of pseudo-science are doing their best to manipulate public opinion to suit their own narrow perspective on life.
Some of of the key things I look at when someone posts an opinion from a sole medical practitioner of some kind, like a "professional, a doctor, a doctor of dentistry, a PhD, or other person of 'character and credentials," are... who are they? What is their area of expertise? What is their reputation? Is their opinion supported by peer review, publication, and public scrutiny? Has their research, if any, been validated and confirmed by other researchers. Is their study large scale enough, and well designed enough, and well managed enough to achieve statistical significance?
This is the bugaboo of pseudoscience that plagues the internet today. No single dentist in private practice, as one example, can "prove the ADA wrong," as these bogus claims often style their dissent. Can they raise questions? Of course. Should they be paid attention to be the mainstream professional community? Absolutely. Do they have anything valid to say to private individuals? Almost never.
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Now that this poster has nothing to offer he/she attacks the members of CD.
I do my best not to attack other members, although I've been known to slip occasionally, for which I am contrite and apologetic when it does happen. But I absolutely will attack at every opportunity the kind of sloppy thinking, irrational reasoning, and logical fallacies that far too often seem to displace smart thinking in these forums.
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The bigger question here is not about fluorides but that the masses are being force medicated without their consent and for many without their knowledge. This is a violation of our basic rights as Americans.
And this is merely another meaningless repetition of a radical partisan mantra, even though every single element of it has been repeatedly refuted:
Force medicated? : Nobody has EVER been forced to drink fluoridated water. Period. Stop saying that. And it is clearly NOT a medication, since it is a natural component of unaltered ground water in many parts of the world, and especially the US. Where it is artificially added it is merely to adjust the level to what is proven to be optimum for good dental health.
Without their consent?: Not in this democratic society, where free and open elections determine public consent for all manner of things that are done for the public good that some individuals may not agree with.
Without their knowledge?: Sorry, the known facts do not correlate with this claim at all. Fluoridation of public water has been front-page headline news material since the beginning, for almost 70 years, primarily driven by the anti-Semitic anti-Communist witch hunts of the 1950s. Many communities have had public referendums on this, sometime repeatedly. You'd have to be really, really committed to ignorance of public affairs to not be aware of the issues.
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I only suggest that the viewer look at both sides and judge for themselves.
Thanks, that's exactly MY point.
On one side is a mountain of carefully performed, credible and validated large scale studies, done over time, that thousands of scientists and dental professionals agree on.
Compare that with a handful of minority opinions on the other side, which get cherrypicked out by radical advocates who hope you don't notice they have no substantial support from the mainstream. And whether they have a financial gain to make from stating a contrarian view, or are just genuinely committed to some intellectual "wild hair," these teaspoons of disagreement ultimately share the same fatal flaw... they simply do not pass the "reasonable doubt" test when measured against the massive consensus of other professionals.
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No fluorides and feeling better every day!
Good for you. Seriously. I quite honestly wish you well. Live long and prosper! I just know you have absolutely no credible basis for claiming that drinking distilled water for a month is the cause.
Sorry!
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