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I've been reading about some of these new hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that are getting close to roll out by some of the big car makers. I'm a daily bicycle commuter, so these would not be of any interest for me personally. By coincidence, every day I park my bicycle at work in a enclosed bicycle locker that is right next to a pair of ClearEdge (formerly called United Technologies) PureCell 400 kilowatt power systems, which consume natural gas to create a chemical reaction that produces electriclty without combustion.
These two large commercial grade fuel cell power plants have been installed and in service at the building where I work for over 2 years. They provide over half the electrical power consumed at our building (where about 800 people work along with a large telecommunications center and data center). The technicians that perform maintenance on these fuel cells have to visit often, and sometimes they work on the fuel cell systems for days and days, not just an hour or two. I know because I see them when I arrive for work in the early morning and sometimes there are still working when I leave in the mid-afternoon. I have seen them replace almost every large component in these fuel cells. I have seen them hire giant cranes to lift the large replacement components into place more than a few times over the past few years. My conculsion as a casual daily observer is that fuel cells are the most complex system ever invented to generate electrical power. It is mind boggling how much regular maintenance is needed to keep the industrial grade fuel cell systems in operation at our building. In contrast, I doubt if a technician from Southern California Edison has ever visited our building in the past couple of years.
Based on my daily observations for the past couple of years watching a real live commercial grade fuel cell power plant, would I want one to provide power for my own home or my personal transportation vehicle? No, not even if it were free. The amount of maintenance and the frequency of maintenance that is required to keep a fuel cell in operation would make it a "no go" for me.
When United Technologies sold the fuel cells to the place where I work, they must have brought along some incredible sales people that likely made no mention of the large amount of maintenance that is needed to keep them in operation. Come to think of it, this might be why some big auto makers would like the fuel cell vehicles better than all electric vehicles. They would likely be a bonanza for their maintenance departments once the fuel cell vehicles get beyond the warranty.
Based on my daily observations for the past couple of years watching a real live commercial grade fuel cell power plant, would I want one to provide power for my own home or my personal transportation vehicle? No, not even if it were free. The amount of maintenance and the frequency of maintenance that is required to keep a fuel cell in operation would make it a "no go" for me.
Sorry, I'd say that would be a good example of making a choice badly, based on vastly insufficient evidence.
Whatever has gone wrong with that particular installation is uncharacteristic of the breed. As a matter of fact, what fuel-cells are generally prized for, despite their higher initial cost, is their track record over many years in a wide range of scenarios, providing reliable power with far less maintenance than a gas or diesel generator would require.
Somehow your building got a lemon, for whatever reason(s), but it's no reason to disregard all the positive experience with fuel cells.
If fuel cell-powered cars run on electric motors as per the current federal definition, then the current crop of EV and hybrids are a great transitional technology. By the time fuel cells become efficient and cost-effective, the electric tech will be there, the economies of scale will be there, and it will be an easy transition.
My understanding is that fuel cells are not there yet, and may never be there; right now it's just wishful thinking and pie-in-the-sky, whereas the electrics and hybrids are out there and available in the 50 states.
We just got a Prius wagon and are quite pleased; if you make an effort to drive the "hybrid way" (e.g., pump and glide, try to stay in electric mode, recharge as you coast to the red light, etc) you can get 50 mpg in this vehicle, and the smaller Prius model can get upwards of 60 mpg. I do a fair amount of driving and a 300 mile Volt doesn't tempt me when I can go 575 miles on an 11 gallon tank right now.
The cost of the cars is high, too. With platinum as the most widely used catalyst in the fuel cells, the price of a single fuel cell vehicle is currently more than $100,000 and even perhaps considerably more, which is why the only hydrogen cars available for you to drive at the moment are for lease, not for sale. Few people are in a position to afford such an expensive car. Other catalysts are being developed which will probably be less expensive than platinum, but nobody knows how soon they'll be available for large-scale use.
The storage problem is also a thorny one. Hydrogen is a gas and it likes to spread out. Putting it in a car means squeezing it down to a reasonable size, and that isn't easy. Furthermore, hydrogen gets warm while it's sitting in the tank of a parked car, which causes the gas to expand. This means that the tanks have to vent the hydrogen periodically from the car. Leave a hydrogen car sitting around for more than a few days and all the fuel will be gone. Hydrogen is also highly flammable -- the spectacular explosion of the dirigible Hindenburg in the 1930s is believed by some to have been the result of a hydrogen fire -- so, if the hydrogen gets out of the tank, it has the potential to be dangerous. Fortunately, hydrogen fires aren't as hot as gasoline fires and are less likely to start secondary fires. And because hydrogen rises, most escaped hydrogen will float away before it can actually do any harm.
And is hydrogen really non-polluting? A fuel cell produces only heat and water as exhaust, but the processes used to create the hydrogen are not necessarily as clean. Electrolysis uses electricity and that electricity will often come from plants that burn coal, a highly polluting source. And when hydrogen is extracted from natural gas, it produces carbon emissions, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid by using hydrogen in the first place.
Many people think that we'll overcome these obstacles eventually, but it's going to be difficult. Others believe that our best bet for fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving in the near future lies not in hydrogen but in hybrid electric vehicles, like the Toyota Prius, the Ford Fusion hybrid and other similar hybrid cars. Still, it's possible that within the next couple of decades, you just might own a hydrogen fuel cell car.
Here is my take. I am always open to the next new thing. If Hydrogen delivers it, then great. If you don't like it, there is always an ICE or EV around. It's why there are Ford's, Chevy's, Dodge's, Honda's, Toyota's, Subbies, Hyundai's, Nissans Etc... And You can get them in almost whatever color you want -
I currently have a 2013 Volt, our first EV - and even with the 38 EV Mile rated range (BTW, we get 47-50 miles which lasts a couple of days before charging) we don't use ANY fuel for the daily commute. Only time we did use fuel was on a long weekend trip (600 mile RT). A trip I couldn't even take a Tesla on, if I had one - as the problem of where do I recharge is the problem. We did it, since it has a gas "generator". If that 'generator' was Hydrogen and I could get it filled up all over at fuel stations across the US, I'm game.
Now of course, there is another fun thing - how could you bring your buddy a 5 gal. can of hydrogen to dump in the car to get to the fuel station when s/he ran out?
Also, CNG cars have a home fueling solution, could there be one for Hydrogen if you have natural gas at the house? Is this even being considered?
After several months of EV ownership, the one thing I really *love* about it and makes it so my next car will be the same, is that I charge up at home and I don't have to visit the gas station.
Here is my take. I am always open to the next new thing. If Hydrogen delivers it, then great. If you don't like it, there is always an ICE or EV around. It's why there are Ford's, Chevy's, Dodge's, Honda's, Toyota's, Subbies, Hyundai's, Nissans Etc... And You can get them in almost whatever color you want -
I currently have a 2013 Volt, our first EV - and even with the 38 EV Mile rated range (BTW, we get 47-50 miles which lasts a couple of days before charging) we don't use ANY fuel for the daily commute. Only time we did use fuel was on a long weekend trip (600 mile RT). A trip I couldn't even take a Tesla on, if I had one - as the problem of where do I recharge is the problem. We did it, since it has a gas "generator". If that 'generator' was Hydrogen and I could get it filled up all over at fuel stations across the US, I'm game.
Now of course, there is another fun thing - how could you bring your buddy a 5 gal. can of hydrogen to dump in the car to get to the fuel station when s/he ran out?
Also, CNG cars have a home fueling solution, could there be one for Hydrogen if you have natural gas at the house? Is this even being considered?
After several months of EV ownership, the one thing I really *love* about it and makes it so my next car will be the same, is that I charge up at home and I don't have to visit the gas station.
I've read that on average, Volt owners are going 700-800 miles between fill ups. Some are in the thousands. That's pretty cool. A home solar recharge system would make it almost ideal--store up the power during the day (fuel cells?) and charge the car overnight.
I've filled up twice in almost 3K miles (that road trip). So I guess I am getting close to 1,000 miles per fill-up. I am at 140mpg for FUEL. If you are ever curious voltstats.net complies stats from Onstar. I am on it. You have to gie them permission to get Onstar data, so there is "no faking" it. You can generate all types of reports. There are a couple of people getting 15k miles per gallon. They just never use fuel.
Other nice thing, is that my wife has use of a free Level 2 Charger (220V) at work. So more than half the time we don't pay for electricity either. We still charge with the 110V charger at home to make sure we use as little fuel as possible.
Great article on this here; HowStuffWorks "Hydrogen Car Setbacks"
Sorry, I think it's a terrible, misleading article. It's not only seriously outdated, maybe 4 years old... there's no date on the piece, but it refers to Governor Schwarzenegger in the present tense... but it also contains factual errors.
Let's start with the overall negativity about the chances of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles hitting the market within the next decade. Sorry, but the point of this thread is that Hyundai has announced their plans to have their first production models on sale next year, and Toyota and Honda in 2015. And Ford, Daimler and Renault-Nissan have said they're aiming for 2017 releases. So the article is just flat wrong on that point.
Quote:
With platinum as the most widely used catalyst in the fuel cells, the price of a single fuel cell vehicle is currently more than $100,000 and even perhaps considerably more, which is why the only hydrogen cars available for you to drive at the moment are for lease, not for sale. Few people are in a position to afford such an expensive car. Other catalysts are being developed which will probably be less expensive than platinum, but nobody knows how soon they'll be available for large-scale use.
Try 2015.
Quote:
The storage problem is also a thorny one. Hydrogen is a gas and it likes to spread out. Putting it in a car means squeezing it down to a reasonable size, and that isn't easy. Furthermore, hydrogen gets warm while it's sitting in the tank of a parked car, which causes the gas to expand. This means that the tanks have to vent the hydrogen periodically from the car. Leave a hydrogen car sitting around for more than a few days and all the fuel will be gone.
Totally bogus. He's thinking of the liquid hydrogen used as fuel in rockets. A tank of compressed hydrogen gas is more like a tank of compressed propane gas than it is like a rocket.
Quote:
Hydrogen is also highly flammable -- the spectacular explosion of the dirigible Hindenburg in the 1930s is believed by some to have been the result of a hydrogen fire -- so, if the hydrogen gets out of the tank, it has the potential to be dangerous. Fortunately, hydrogen fires aren't as hot as gasoline fires and are less likely to start secondary fires. And because hydrogen rises, most escaped hydrogen will float away before it can actually do any harm.
OMG, this is just limp thinking... "If the ________ gets out of the tank, it has the potential to be dangerous." Fill in the blank with any common vehicle fuel and it's a valid statement.
Quote:
And is hydrogen really non-polluting? A fuel cell produces only heat and water as exhaust, but the processes used to create the hydrogen are not necessarily as clean. Electrolysis uses electricity and that electricity will often come from plants that burn coal, a highly polluting source. And when hydrogen is extracted from natural gas, it produces carbon emissions, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid by using hydrogen in the first place.
What lazy work... Yes, producing hydrogen gas from natural gas produces some CO2 as a byproduct, but far less than any equivalent fossil fuel does per distance traveled. So why not say that?
And some electricity that is used to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen through hydrolyzing might come from fossil fuel burning generators, but the net carbon released in that process is still less polluting than burning fossil fuels in the vehicles, and the control of the emissions from one giant "tailpipe" is far more effective than trying to clean up the dirty tailpipes of thousands of individual vehicles. So why not say that?
And powering hydrolyzers directly by solar energy banks is not only an extremely clean way to generate hydrogen, but it's very energy efficient. And new technology has already been demonstrated that uses ultra-high temperature solar collectors to directly "crack" water into hydrogen and oxygen without any need for electricity. So why not say that?
In short, there have been a lot of notable technological improvements since whenever the article was written, which is why it's so irrelevant today, and the cars it didn't see hitting the market for another decade are now scheduled to hit the dealers next year.
You might want to rethink the bold / underlined part. Electricity is fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster
Here is my take. I am always open to the next new thing. If Hydrogen delivers it, then great. If you don't like it, there is always an ICE or EV around. It's why there are Ford's, Chevy's, Dodge's, Honda's, Toyota's, Subbies, Hyundai's, Nissans Etc... And You can get them in almost whatever color you want -
I currently have a 2013 Volt, our first EV - and even with the 38 EV Mile rated range (BTW, we get 47-50 miles which lasts a couple of days before charging) we don't use ANY fuel for the daily commute. Only time we did use fuel was on a long weekend trip (600 mile RT). A trip I couldn't even take a Tesla on, if I had one - as the problem of where do I recharge is the problem. We did it, since it has a gas "generator". If that 'generator' was Hydrogen and I could get it filled up all over at fuel stations across the US, I'm game.
Now of course, there is another fun thing - how could you bring your buddy a 5 gal. can of hydrogen to dump in the car to get to the fuel station when s/he ran out?
Also, CNG cars have a home fueling solution, could there be one for Hydrogen if you have natural gas at the house? Is this even being considered?
After several months of EV ownership, the one thing I really *love* about it and makes it so my next car will be the same, is that I charge up at home and I don't have to visit the gas station.
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and lots of it.
