Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
More than a dozen years ago, Toyota brought the Prius Hybrid to the US market, and it was met by a lot of head-scratching, a lot of jokes on late-night television, and a lot of skeptics yucking it up about the Prius's "sewing machine" sized gas engine and admittedly pokey performance... at least at first. Since then, of course, Prius has become a market success, with over 10 million cars sold and four different models in the current lineup.
Can they achieve the same success with their new Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered car, being unveiled this week at the Tokyo Auto Show?
Quote:
For decades, hydrogen fuel cell cars have been the automotive technology of tomorrow: the big idea, for someday far in the future.
No longer. At auto shows in Los Angeles and Tokyo this week, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Hyundai Motor Co. will introduce hydrogen-powered cars. Hyundai's will reach U.S. showrooms next year, while the other models will begin selling a year later.
It amounts to "a coming out party for hydrogen," said John Krafcik, chief executive of Hyundai Motor America.
Toyota's car, being unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show, "has the same potential as the first Prius," said Bill Fay, general manager of Toyota's U.S. sales arm. Fuel cell offerings from the two other automakers will debut in L.A.
In a little more than a decade, the Prius has become America's favorite hybrid and California's bestselling vehicle.
In one sense, there is a steeper slope to climb than Prius faced, because widespread acceptance will largely depend on a new fuel infrastructure which has mostly not yet been built. At least with electric vehicles, which also have infrastructure issues, there is a wide electric network to draw on, even where high speed chargers have not yet been deployed. And putting an EV charger in your garage means you have a reliable personal base station. There's no such flexibility with hydrogen. And my personal dream of having a solar powered hydrogen generator in the carport still seems years away, even if the cars are already here now.
Then there is the public's anxiety about hydrogen's danger, which supporters say is largely a perceptual problem. Researchers have fired high-power rifle bullets through fuel cells and hydrogen tanks, just trying to get them to catch fire, without being able to cause an explosion or even a fire. But everyone who has ever seen the film of the Hindenberg Airship disaster in 1937 has that image in the back of their mind, no matter how irrelevant it may be to today's completely different technology.
On the other hand, Toyota's success over time with the Prius line has built confidence in their ability to master new technology and deliver it to the public. And it blazed a trail for all other alternatives to the traditional Internal Combustion Engine which has dominated the transportation segment for more than a century. Toyota's Prius broke the mold, and now other new technologies are finding easier acceptance.
Quote:
Quote:
Hyundai's offering will be a hydrogen version of its Tucson sport utility vehicle and will be built on the same South Korean assembly line as the gasoline model of the small SUV. That's helping the automaker bring down the cost of producing the vehicle, O'Brien said.
It will use the same sheet metal that comes out of the giant body panel stamping machines at the factory in Uslan. Both versions will share interiors and much of the electronics. Hyundai can do this because the hydrogen drivetrain fits into the space that otherwise would be occupied by a gas engine and transmission, O'Brien said.
Honda will be showing off the concept for what will be its next-generation Clarity hydrogen car. The automaker already leases about two dozen Claritys in California as part of an experimental program to learn how people drive hydrogen cars. It will go on the market in the U.S and Japan in 2015 and later in Europe.
Toyota's is a four-seater that looks like a futuristic and aggressive Prius. The automaker has reduced expenses by tapping an electric powertrain it already uses on one of its hybrid vehicles and other common parts, McClory said.
"It is a very intriguing proposition for us," said Fay, the Toyota executive. "We think it could be the best zero-emissions solution that hits the market."
So electricity is used to convert water to hydrogen.
Hydrogen is stored in the car and then converted to electricity.
An electric motor then runs the car.
Since both conversions come at a cost, what exactly is the advantage over an EV?
So electricity is used to convert water to hydrogen.
Hydrogen is stored in the car and then converted to electricity.
An electric motor then runs the car.
Since both conversions come at a cost, what exactly is the advantage over an EV?
Since both conversions come at a cost, what exactly is the advantage over an EV?
It's not as obvious, but an EV also has a double conversion to do, since nobody is running a long extension cord out to the car. Electricity gets converted to energy potential in a battery, then converted back to electrical current to drive the car.
The anticipated benefits of hydrogen power are, off the top of my head:
Longer range... most of the EVs currently being sold (heh) have ranges under 100 miles. The best (and most expensive) Tesla model advertises over 200 miles per full charge. But the Toyota Fuel Cell vehicle promises 320 mile range.
Faster refuelling... the hydrogen fuel cell folks are talking about a 3 minute refuelling time, while the only way EVs can compete with that is with a physical swap of the battery a la Tesla. Otherwise EVs are looking at recharge rates, even at high energy stations, that are many times longer. This gives an edge to hydrogen power for long distance trips, giving drivers the same range of options and flexibility of planning they're used to with gasoline powered cars.
Storage efficiency... charge a battery, let it sit, the battery gradually discharges naturally. Fill a hydrogen tank, let it sit as long as you want, all the hydrogen will still be there when you are ready to use it.
Temperature range advantage... all current battery technologies lose power as the temperature drops, which reduces range.
Ecological impact? ... it's hard to evaluate at this early stage, but some critics of EVs call out production of their batteries as a weak link in terms of ecological impact, and claimed efficiencies of recycling the batteries are as yet unproven on the large scale that will be required for widespread adoption of the technology to take place.
Having said all that, fuel cell cars have several challenges to overcome:
Cost of fuel... EVs have benefited from current electrical power costs that make them substantially cheaper than ICEs in terms of fuel cost per mile, typically half the cost of running on gas. Hydrogen power, by contrast, will have fuel costs about the same per mile as gasoline.
Ecological impact?... it's hard to evaluate at this early stage, but some critics of hydrogen powered cars call out production of the catalytic elements as a weak link in terms of ecological impact, and claimed efficiencies of recycling the cells are as yet unproven on the large scale that will be required for widespread adoption of the technology to take place. (Is there an echo in here?)
Market forces... the costs of manufacturing and selling small numbers of vehicles using radical technology are necessarily high, currently too high for casual adoption. Early adopters are motivated by other factors than cost, but for wider adoption by the general public prices will have to come down, and for prices to come down the numbers will have to go up, which is a classic chicken/egg issue. Toyota solved that with the Prius, which is why I believe they will also solve it with their Fuel Cell car.
And a few more miscellaneous thoughts...
Although I personally love the concept of using solar power to generate hydrogen to run my car, the truth of the matter is that almost all of the hydrogen used in these cars... at least initially... will be manufactured from natural gas. It's already a huge business... something like $100 billion worth is manufactured annually... because large quantities of hydrogen are used in the manufacture of petroleum products.
So why not just burn the natural gas in cars instead? Because that produces carbon emissions, while hydrogen power is truly zero-emissions, releasing only a small quantity of clean water as a byproduct. But what about the carbon emissions from the production of hydrogen from natural gas? Carbon emissions from one very large "tailpipe" that powers a million cars, to use a popular image, are far easier to control and capture than they are from a million vehicle tailpipes. As a matter of fact, sequestering CO2 by injecting it back into the same wells the gas came out of is already a viable technology.
Fuel cell technology also has one more thing going for it... there's already a lot of experience with it over a long period of time, as fuel cells have been successfully employed to run all kinds of different military equipment, as well as in industrial forklifts and robots, where the absence of toxic exhaust allows great flexibility in deployment. It's only the use in production passenger vehicles that is novel. Enthusiasts and technology geeks have already done their own fuel cell powered conversions from ICE propulsion, using off-the-shelf components. I even have neighbors in serious discussions about using fuel-cell power units for powering their homes, or even building so-called micro-grids with others who are currently off-the-grid in terms of the public utility.
So the technology is already pretty solid. The biggest challenges I see to be overcome to be successful in the marketplace are infrastructure, consumer resistance, and cost. And as one of the people in the article referenced, if it succeeds it will not be an overnight thing at all, but the the result of a strong commitment to the long haul.
We certainly do live in interesting times, and I'm looking forward to seeing how all this shakes out over the coming years. For those who understand the reference, I think Tom Swift would be proud.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,660 posts, read 81,403,499 times
Reputation: 57906
I would be far more likely to buy a Hydrogen powered car than the plugin electric, once the fuel infrastructure is in place. Unfortunately, by then I'll probably be too old to drive.
I would be far more likely to buy a Hydrogen powered car than the plugin electric, once the fuel infrastructure is in place. Unfortunately, by then I'll probably be too old to drive.
Me too, to tell the truth, but do not give up all hope. "Self-driving" cars are rapidly becoming a reality too.
Then there is the public's anxiety about hydrogen's danger, which supporters say is largely a perceptual problem. Researchers have fired high-power rifle bullets through fuel cells and hydrogen tanks, just trying to get them to catch fire, without being able to cause an explosion or even a fire. But everyone who has ever seen the film of the Hindenberg Airship disaster in 1937 has that image in the back of their mind, no matter how irrelevant it may be to today's completely different technology.
I always get a chuckle over this. People get all nervous about hydrogen because of that accident yet they completely ignore any videos they see of the results of car fires or what happens when a plane crashes and the fuel ignites.
Yet they are comfortable (more or less) driving/riding in a gasoline powered car and flying in airplanes.
It numbs my mind, probably more than ANYTHING else, that hydrogen technology lags behind so far. Just shows the insidious power of BIG OIL and it's industrial allies. By now we should be running on WATER through a series of energy transformation. Instead we are right here giving props to the Priuis P.O.S.
Can anyone explain how (or not) a solar panel on a car
could continually re-charge a battery as the car is driven?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hydrogen power vs EV technology
