Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am a child of the 50s and remember what was done then. There were no plastic supermarket bags, but PAPER bags. Great? That meant cutting down TREES for paper. Meat came in paper wrap from the butcher. Trees. Cheeses came wrapped in paper also. More trees. Milk and drinks were in GLASS containers, not recyled but thrown in trash. Household food garbage went down toilet bowls because the paper bags would break with wet food products. Paper wrappings went into the paper bag trash. We had a cat. Did not scoop it but threw the entire pan's contents out in a PAPER bag after a few days. Everything was PAPER, and more TREES, TREES, TREES. That is precisely why plastic bags started being used. "Save a TREE" was the motto back then. Old enough to remember that? Instead of plastic, want to go back to using all that paper and cutting down trees again? Or maybe we can use those recyled bags for our trash, meats, dairy, etc.?
I am a child of the 50s and remember what was done then. There were no plastic supermarket bags, but PAPER bags. Great? That meant cutting down TREES for paper. Meat came in paper wrap from the butcher. Trees. Cheeses came wrapped in paper also. More trees. Milk and drinks were in GLASS containers, not recyled but thrown in trash. Household food garbage went down toilet bowls because the paper bags would break with wet food products. Paper wrappings went into the paper bag trash. We had a cat. Did not scoop it but threw the entire pan's contents out in a PAPER bag after a few days. Everything was PAPER, and more TREES, TREES, TREES. That is precisely why plastic bags started being used. "Save a TREE" was the motto back then. Old enough to remember that? Instead of plastic, want to go back to using all that paper and cutting down trees again? Or maybe we can use those recyled bags for our trash, meats, dairy, etc.?
Yes, and now there are so many fewer trees you can't get decent wood to build a house.
Lest everyone forget, it was the environmentalists and "greeners" who pushed to eliminate paper bags. At the time they didn't care what replaced paper bags so long as trees weren't involved.
Now, those same people have decided that what they did not think through (the common theme in green) needs to be undone.
As I've said before, the "greeners" create the problems and then want to blame everyone else for them. They never think past the word "go". Their motto is "who cares, just do something, anything, we'll clean it up later"
Yes, and now there are so many fewer trees you can't get decent wood to build a house.
Lest everyone forget, it was the environmentalists and "greeners" who pushed to eliminate paper bags. At the time they didn't care what replaced paper bags so long as trees weren't involved.
Now, those same people have decided that what they did not think through (the common theme in green) needs to be undone.
As I've said before, the "greeners" create the problems and then want to blame everyone else for them. They never think past the word "go". Their motto is "who cares, just do something, anything, we'll clean it up later"
You make zero sense, always, at least you are consistent.
Continuous blanket statements after the next, who are you quoting?
Would someone ban paper bags and want businesses to replace them with plastic?
Businesses make the decisions, not someone you made up in your head ("greeners") so you can come on citydata and fish for an argument so your life feels important. If you want attention go to the relationships topic board and make up stories there, you seem to be good at it.
I am a child of the 50s and remember what was done then. There were no plastic supermarket bags, but PAPER bags. Great? That meant cutting down TREES for paper. Meat came in paper wrap from the butcher. Trees. Cheeses came wrapped in paper also. More trees. Milk and drinks were in GLASS containers, not recyled but thrown in trash. Household food garbage went down toilet bowls because the paper bags would break with wet food products. Paper wrappings went into the paper bag trash. We had a cat. Did not scoop it but threw the entire pan's contents out in a PAPER bag after a few days. Everything was PAPER, and more TREES, TREES, TREES. That is precisely why plastic bags started being used. "Save a TREE" was the motto back then. Old enough to remember that? Instead of plastic, want to go back to using all that paper and cutting down trees again? Or maybe we can use those recyled bags for our trash, meats, dairy, etc.?
Speaking of cat litter, in reference to using plastic bags for disposal, we didn't have scoopable litter. We used a cardboard (paper) box with newsPAPER under it and shredded newsPAPER or sawdust (paper) as litter. Think how many trees that was? The whole thing had to be thrown out very frequently. Let the cat outside to do it's "business". Well, not if you lived in a NYC apartment building. Outside would have meant the hallway and the building stairs.
I am a child of the 50s and remember what was done then. There were no plastic supermarket bags, but PAPER bags. Great? That meant cutting down TREES for paper. Meat came in paper wrap from the butcher. Trees. Cheeses came wrapped in paper also. More trees. Milk and drinks were in GLASS containers, not recyled but thrown in trash. Household food garbage went down toilet bowls because the paper bags would break with wet food products. Paper wrappings went into the paper bag trash. We had a cat. Did not scoop it but threw the entire pan's contents out in a PAPER bag after a few days. Everything was PAPER, and more TREES, TREES, TREES. That is precisely why plastic bags started being used. "Save a TREE" was the motto back then. Old enough to remember that? Instead of plastic, want to go back to using all that paper and cutting down trees again? Or maybe we can use those recyled bags for our trash, meats, dairy, etc.?
I think you did a good job of catching the mood of the era, if not exactly the whole truth of the situation. "Save a Tree" was a motto co-opted by plastic bag manufacturers to sell their product, which retailers wanted to use because they cost a mere fraction of what paper bags did, but which consumers hated when they first appeared in the marketplace. The new plastic bags didn't stand up by themselves, and they flopped around and spilled your groceries when you put them down in the back of your car, but... but... think of the forests being cut down! Think of all the baby owls! SAVE THE TREES!
In reality paper is highly recyclable, far better than most plastics, which typically can only be recycled once, if at all, while wood fibers are able to be recycled as many as 7 times. Most paper grocery bags today contain at least some recycled fiber content, as does most cardboard, and a lot of molded impact protection. And the virgin fiber likely came from farm raised trees that are ideal for paper and totally unsuitable for lumber. So it's a sustainable resource. And it's compostable and breaks down safely in nature. But the old mantras from the 70s die hard, and a lot of people today still feel guilty about using paper packaging.
Yes, of course we all need to be conscious of the containers and packaging we use, and pay attention to minimizing our waste, and reusing the bags we carry things in. And recycling paper does require water, which must be responsibly managed. But when it comes down to the roughly 35 year old refrain "Paper or Plastic?" there's simply no doubt any more that paper is the better choice, ecologically speaking.
Just adding to the paper bag story - trees for paper are raised for paper. You don't need oak to make good paper, so they plant faster-growing trees for use as paper pulp. And wood scraps from other industries are sent to paper mills, too.
Just adding to the paper bag story - trees for paper are raised for paper. You don't need oak to make good paper, so they plant faster-growing trees for use as paper pulp. And wood scraps from other industries are sent to paper mills, too.
That might be true now, it wasn't for a long time.
The problem not thought about with those faster growing trees for paper? They are typically planted in areas where the natural environment sustained other types of trees. The oaks and such were clear cut and then fast growing rapid harvest trees were planted instead.
Environmentalism has always been a middle of the problem way of thinking without or with little real regard to what started a problem it so it could avoided in the future and how it ends so that future problems aren't the result.
The solutions aren't to do without, the solutions are to do better with what you have. That also doesn't mean stopping advancements in materials development and other technologies, it means looking past knee-jerk experiments that create long term problems larger than the one that currently exists.
Before there were paper bags, there were the type that were used over and over again. Then came paper bags. Greeners came along and complained about paper bags so we got plastic. Then they complained about plastic so back to paper or the bags everyone had in the beginning. If that was the end of it that wouldn't be so bad but like all things not thought through, many other problems were created:
Laws that cost untold sums to implement and enforce.
Systems that are so complex they can't handle a simple "what if" someone doesn't want to use a bag at all. (Safeway for example can't handle that situation in their self check outs)
Increased costs to business which get passed into consumers
People bypassing the laws and regulations (buying plastic bags in bulk and using them)
Ignorance of the real plastic problem and it isn't thin grocery bags.
All those could have been solved by thinking about the problem and solution instead of going with the knee jerk greeners who pushed for a law that accomplishes very little and creates more problems than existed in the first place.
Of course, some will say none of those other problems really exist or are inconsequential. Now you know why we have so many problems, it is that kind of thinking that has led to most all the major problems humans have as a species.
Before there were paper bags, there were the type that were used over and over again. Then came paper bags. Greeners came along and complained about paper bags so we got plastic.
Systems that are so complex they can't handle a simple "what if" someone doesn't want to use a bag at all. (Safeway for example can't handle that situation in their self check outs)
You mean like the reusable bags and containers I use when shopping that you have dismissed in post after post after post? You're a funny one, Mack.
As for Safeway self check-out, you most certainly can place unbagged items on the weight plate after you scan them. I do it all the time. If I have more groceries than can be accomodated, I use a standard checkout line with an attendant. The problem is that you want to scan your items and then place them immediately back into the cart before you pay, but that thwarts the theft deterrent system. The items, bagged or not, must stay on the weight plate until you have paid the bill, after which you may transfer them to your cart as you wish.
You make zero sense, always, at least you are consistent.
Continuous blanket statements after the next, who are you quoting?
Would someone ban paper bags and want businesses to replace them with plastic?
Businesses make the decisions, not someone you made up in your head ("greeners") so you can come on citydata and fish for an argument so your life feels important. If you want attention go to the relationships topic board and make up stories there, you seem to be good at it.
Yes, exactly. This is well worth repeating. Unfortunately we seem to have our own resident troll here, who just wants to stir things up, without illuminating anything.
You mean like the reusable bags and containers I use when shopping that you have dismissed in post after post after post? You're a funny one, Mack.
As for Safeway self check-out, you most certainly can place unbagged items on the weight plate after you scan them. I do it all the time. If I have more groceries than can be accomodated, I use a standard checkout line with an attendant. The problem is that you want to scan your items and then place them immediately back into the cart before you pay, but that thwarts the theft deterrent system. The items, bagged or not, must stay on the weight plate until you have paid the bill, after which you may transfer them to your cart as you wish.
No, I want to check the items, place them on the scale, then after paying for them, put them into the cart to take back to my vehicle. There is no difference between that and putting them into a bag, then putting them into a cart and then taking them to the vehicle.
Nice try. Well, not really, that was desperation. Talk about being funny.
As for using the standard line if you have more items, hello? The scales area can accommodate several bags, not just one.
The point was that the system wasn't thought through any more than the bag ban was. What you said was an excuse because you probably know just as do I that the way they have it set up doesn't work right in that they never thought anyone wouldn't want to buy a bag. It isn't that they want you to use your own bag either or they would have provisions for the customer to hang the bag in an open condition (several bags in fact) so that customers could easily put the scanned item into them.
What I'm talking about, think it through. It isn't difficult or time consuming. It saves time and is actually easier.
Last edited by Mack Knife; 10-08-2014 at 02:44 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
