Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As more and more people install rooftop solar and taking the 100% solar idea as stated, won't grid connection fees have to continually increase as more and homes go solar? Isn't there a point where you never recover the investment because you're locked into a grid connect payment that never goes away?
If you want to look at some models, islands sometimes are useful.
In the Caymans, they have a local generation loop grid around the Island.
Local Power is generated by Diesel generators (most expensive method there is).
Typical billing is in the 40-some cents per kWh. About 4 times the US average.
Folks that install Solar are charged 10% of the Power they would have otherwise used. That gives them Grid (the local island generator) Backup and helps support the overall system.
Not saying that is Good, Bad, or otherwise, or should be repeated by others -- but that is how they are working things out.
I lowered my demand by replacing all of my lightbulbs with CFLs or LEDS. No more Halogen or incandescents. And my AC went from SEER 10 to at least SEER 13. I also replaced all my windows with insulated impact windows. This is my Florida house. It had nothing to do with the down turn in the economy - I can tell you I am really glad I did this, since my bill used to hit $800 in the summer and now with higher rates I am only in the $500 range. I doubt I will make the money I spent doing those things back - but they had to be done anyways. Bulbs burn out and A/Cs quit working. The old windows were damaged in the hurricanes of 2005...
What has started to cause an increase in my power consumption is our electric car. And I want another one. Besides the fact that they are cheaper to operate, I like "refueling" them at home. No need to hit the gas station. And in my new home, the gas station is further away and it is a whole lot colder. So plugging in, in the heated garage sounds like something I want to do.
And IF IF IF we went to 100% solar, which I don't think we should. Storage of power could be an issue. BTW - good sun around here is potentially from around 10am to 3pm. But in reality maybe 2 hours a day would you get direct sunlight in the winter. Now the summer is a whole 'nother ballgame.
And YOU are typical. Folks using less power for their homes and business.
The Energy Companies NEVER considered that, btw.
And like you noted -- Your Electric Car.
That is the Last, Best, Hope for the Corporate Central Plant operator model.
The world will look so good utilizing billions of solar panels, just look at the beauty of Ivanpah...
Now picture the OP's 100% solar world...
Looking at your picture I'm reminded of the same amount of surface area on the flat rooftops of warehouses and big box stores all over the place that could be covered with PV panels without changing the landscape one iota.
And of course, we could subsidise those farmers that we are already subsidising to grow nothing to put up fields of thes things in the midwest and southwest where it would be easy to hook them to the existing grid. We could definitely cover the requisite amount of surface area with very little impact to the view.
If you want to look at some models, islands sometimes are useful.
In the Caymans, they have a local generation loop grid around the Island.
Local Power is generated by Diesel generators (most expensive method there is).
Typical billing is in the 40-some cents per kWh. About 4 times the US average.
Folks that install Solar are charged 10% of the Power they would have otherwise used. That gives them Grid (the local island generator) Backup and helps support the overall system.
Not saying that is Good, Bad, or otherwise, or should be repeated by others -- but that is how they are working things out.
Given what you said, how are islands useful models?
Looking at your picture I'm reminded of the same amount of surface area on the flat rooftops of warehouses and big box stores all over the place that could be covered with PV panels without changing the landscape one iota.
And of course, we could subsidise those farmers that we are already subsidising to grow nothing to put up fields of thes things in the midwest and southwest where it would be easy to hook them to the existing grid. We could definitely cover the requisite amount of surface area with very little impact to the view.
There are many locations those nice flat topped building with panels covering them don't work. In fact, there are large parts of this country where they wouldn't work.
In the paradise scenario, everyone lives in a certain place where the sun always shines and it never sets.
It seems like you have no idea whatsoever as to why farmers are subsidized. In part, farmers are subsidized to allow them to leave unused or plow over land used for food production.
Perhaps you know of a way to grow crops under solar panels? Just what happens when the time comes those lands are needed for food production? You do realize that you're talking about putting solar panels to cover lands that are high quality food production areas right? So when the eventual time comes that the land is needed, suddenly those panels get moved? Right. Sure, in the perfect world you flip a switch and the panels slide off to some non-production lands.
All these paradise scenarios look great until until you scale them up to the point in this discussion.
There are many locations those nice flat topped building with panels covering them don't work. In fact, there are large parts of this country where they wouldn't work.
In the paradise scenario, everyone lives in a certain place where the sun always shines and it never sets.
It seems like you have no idea whatsoever as to why farmers are subsidized. In part, farmers are subsidized to allow them to leave unused or plow over land used for food production.
Perhaps you know of a way to grow crops under solar panels? Just what happens when the time comes those lands are needed for food production? You do realize that you're talking about putting solar panels to cover lands that are high quality food production areas right? So when the eventual time comes that the land is needed, suddenly those panels get moved? Right. Sure, in the perfect world you flip a switch and the panels slide off to some non-production lands.
All these paradise scenarios look great until until you scale them up to the point in this discussion.
How about thinking past the word go?
Why so condescending?
Of Course just a relatively small percentage of Rooftops + Open Parking lots with Solar on them would power all of the US.
Annual US Electricity use per year is about 4 Million-MegaWatt-hours.
Or about 4 E 12 (that is 4 followed by 12 "0"s) Watt Hours.
So let's compare how much space that is in Solar?
Allowing 9 watts per square foot, and maybe 1000 square foot per roof, with an average run time of 5
hours a day, 365 days per year, . . . .
4 E 12 / (9 x 5 x 365) = about 250 million square feet, or like we guessed above, of 1000 square foot per roof = 250,000 houses, or business, or whatever roofs.
You understand that is not a really big number, right?
I have done installs on Ikeas where just one rooftop install is that are over 10 to 20 times that.
The Central-Plant Carbon-Fuel model is in serious trouble.
Given what you said, how are islands useful models?
They set an extreme case, where input and output options are well bounded and limited.
So one can stop the guessing and outside variables.
Basically an Island is a "worse case" model -- If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.
So let's say a typical Cayman Brac home uses maybe 1000 kWh per month. (just a made up number for our discussion, but not unreasonable).
So the bill for Island Generated Diesel would be somewhere over 1000 x $0.40 = somewhere over $400.
For comparison, on the US mainland, the bill would be around $100.
Meanwhile back on the Island, if they used a Net Metering Model -- Say our homeowner installed enough Solar to make his bill come out to Zero for the month. During the Solar Production Day, the home could run its A/C, pool pump, refrigerator, etc, on their own Solar, along with sending Surplus up to the Island Grid.
Come the evening, they would pull power back from the Grid, while the home is using less, as well as the rest of Island using less than the Daytime Peak. Everyone benefits from this.
For having the benefit of being tied to the Grid, but using Net Zero, the homeowner would pay 10% of what they would have otherwise used -- or about $40.
No Storage, No Batteries, Less Pollution, and a Much Lower Peak Demand. Good for everyone.
But to answer your question -- that is the benefit of a Simple Island Model -- you can see how things work in an isolated small scale before you try it Big Time.
There are many locations those nice flat topped building with panels covering them don't work. In fact, there are large parts of this country where they wouldn't work.
In the paradise scenario, everyone lives in a certain place where the sun always shines and it never sets.
How about thinking past the word go?
How about you realize that there's more than enough to cover our needs in the places it does shine enough. We don't need every rooftop all the way from the Rio Grande to Fargo covered to meet our US energy needs.
But hey, you love to be a close minded arguer, so I don't expect less from you than BS arguing over everything that MIGHT even point in the right direction. How's your Saudi paycheck these days?
As more and more people install rooftop solar and taking the 100% solar idea as stated, won't grid connection fees have to continually increase as more and homes go solar? Isn't there a point where you never recover the investment because you're locked into a grid connect payment that never goes away?
If everyone had rooftop solar connecting to the grid becomes irrelevant without nuke/fossil fuel generation.
For much of the US, real Peak Demand is during Daytime, and in the Summer.
.
It's late into the afternoon and early evening, FYI they set a record once here for electric usage in the winter.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
