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Prices quoted here about $20,600 installed for 20*285 watts, USA made panels. $3.50-3.60 per watt installed seems to be the going rate. That is before any sort of rebates, incentives, etc.
Local PoCo will give you 20 cents per KWH you create this way for 10 years. So 5700 kw * 1.15 (here in VT) = 6555 kwh per year * .2 = $1311 per year. $20600-(.3*20600) = $14420 / $1311 = about 11 years. the math changes at 10 years, but it's close enough.
For grid parity to occur, you need to match grid versus stand alone solar. For most people that includes maintaining the current wasteful lifestyle when it comes to electricity. That cost of stand alone solar system with the required battery storage and generating capacity is still way up there.
I did read that some eastern US utilities are charging a grid connection fee AND a kilo-watt per hour charge. The grid connection fee is more than half the electricity used portion.
Anyway, anybody live back east that can comment on this?? And your thoughts on how that changes your desire to put in a grid connected solar system.
For grid parity to occur, you need to match grid versus stand alone solar. For most people that includes maintaining the current wasteful lifestyle when it comes to electricity. That cost of stand alone solar system with the required battery storage and generating capacity is still way up there.
I did read that some eastern US utilities are charging a grid connection fee AND a kilo-watt per hour charge. The grid connection fee is more than half the electricity used portion.
Anyway, anybody live back east that can comment on this?? And your thoughts on how that changes your desire to put in a grid connected solar system.
The utilities are running scared and for good cause. The model used by PUC assumes the recapture of cost over the life of the capital equipment. It is now crystal clear that is not going to work.
We are at or within a couple of years of parity with the cost of grid power. If you use time of day and peak power costs we are already in a situation where the costs of roof power is well less than the cost of peak power during a good part of the day, And it may well turn out that some use of the power wall batteries may well extend that deeper into the evening.
As the trend continues the cost will shift more and more favorably to roof power. Less than 10 years out it will blow away the grid power.
So what to do? Most efficient will be to encourage roof power while manipulating rates to cover the grid power capital nut. And we need to do it constructively or we may well enable the development of alternatives not optimized by the grid connection. And that would be deadly for the utilities.
... Anyway, anybody live back east that can comment on this?? And your thoughts on how that changes your desire to put in a grid connected solar system.
Okay, I live 'back East'. I am near the Eastern most part of the US, hard to go much further East.
I do not honestly care about 'grid parity'. I want electric power available to my home 365days a year. Not 100 days; not 200 days; not 201 days per year; not 202 days per year.
The modern grid is not capable of providing consistent power in any form of reliable manner. I am not sure how 'parity' fits into modern living. We spent Christmas without power, currently it has been 5 days that we have had power up, but likely the grid should drop again within the next week. After 9 years here, we have yet to witness a full month with grid power all month long. I am fortunate. Most parcels of land in my township do not have access to grid power. I live on a segment of our road that does have grid [for whatever is is worth on days that it is powered]. Parts of our town road do not have power lines.
Quote:
... It is more than cost/kilo-watt generated.
And your point is ? If you lived on the sun, you might likely wish for a glass of cool water. Is cool water available on the sun? Likely not. Now consider power availability in the USA. It does not matter what electricity costs. If you want it, then you want it.
A few years ago the FCC cut high power analog broadcast of TV. Before that we got 3 TV channels, on most days. Now with low-power digital we are reduced to one channel, but it fades in and out. That is life in the USA. If TV were important then you get a satellite dish [there is no cable company in our town].
I am fortunate to live in a section of town that has access to the grid, so obviously if I want electricity on a daily basis then I must figure out how I am going to do that. Is that 'parity' ?
Quote:
... I did read that some eastern US utilities are charging a grid connection fee AND a kilo-watt per hour charge. The grid connection fee is more than half the electricity used portion.
One of our neighbors, has access to the grid, and decided to do 'net-metering' [the phrase for spinning the meter backwards]. When you make power pushed onto the grid, you get 'credit' for that power, but you pay the taxes on the power, plus the transmission fees, and the taxes on the transmission fees. At night when you need power, if it is a day when the grid is up, then you can get power. That power cost is subtracted from your credits, and you pay for it's transmission fees and transmission taxes. Plus you pay for the meter. They found that their monthly electric bill is about the same, as it was before they installed their solar panels and assorted equipment.
The funny part is that every time the grid goes down, their system goes down too. It is a requirement of the federal wiring code and designed into their system. So they still lose power a few times every month, just like everyone who relies on the grid. An hour, 12 hours, 5 days, there is no way to predict how long each outage will last.
My home Solar Power system is to be 'grid-assisted'. We make our own power, and at night if the grid is up, the grid can also top-off our battery-bank. [But only on days when the grid is up]
Homes here in town, that do not have access to the grid, have either stayed powerless, or else they have setup off-grid systems. In the 1950s 'Rural Electrification' as a federal program, was great for Tennessee and out West, though it ran out of steam before it got back to the East Coast.
Okay, I live 'back East'. I am near the Eastern most part of the US, hard to go much further East.
I do not honestly care about 'grid parity'. I want electric power available to my home 365days a year. Not 100 days; not 200 days; not 201 days per year; not 202 days per year.
The modern grid is not capable of providing consistent power in any form of reliable manner. I am not sure how 'parity' fits into modern living. We spent Christmas without power, currently it has been 5 days that we have had power up, but likely the grid should drop again within the next week. After 9 years here, we have yet to witness a full month with grid power all month long. I am fortunate. Most parcels of land in my township do not have access to grid power. I live on a segment of our road that does have grid [for whatever is is worth on days that it is powered]. Parts of our town road do not have power lines.
And your point is ? If you lived on the sun, you might likely wish for a glass of cool water. Is cool water available on the sun? Likely not. Now consider power availability in the USA. It does not matter what electricity costs. If you want it, then you want it.
A few years ago the FCC cut high power analog broadcast of TV. Before that we got 3 TV channels, on most days. Now with low-power digital we are reduced to one channel, but it fades in and out. That is life in the USA. If TV were important then you get a satellite dish [there is no cable company in our town].
I am fortunate to live in a section of town that has access to the grid, so obviously if I want electricity on a daily basis then I must figure out how I am going to do that. Is that 'parity' ?
One of our neighbors, has access to the grid, and decided to do 'net-metering' [the phrase for spinning the meter backwards]. When you make power pushed onto the grid, you get 'credit' for that power, but you pay the taxes on the power, plus the transmission fees, and the taxes on the transmission fees. At night when you need power, if it is a day when the grid is up, then you can get power. That power cost is subtracted from your credits, and you pay for it's transmission fees and transmission taxes. Plus you pay for the meter. They found that their monthly electric bill is about the same, as it was before they installed their solar panels and assorted equipment.
The funny part is that every time the grid goes down, their system goes down too. It is a requirement of the federal wiring code and designed into their system. So they still lose power a few times every month, just like everyone who relies on the grid. An hour, 12 hours, 5 days, there is no way to predict how long each outage will last.
My home Solar Power system is to be 'grid-assisted'. We make our own power, and at night if the grid is up, the grid can also top-off our battery-bank. [But only on days when the grid is up]
Homes here in town, that do not have access to the grid, have either stayed powerless, or else they have setup off-grid systems. In the 1950s 'Rural Electrification' as a federal program, was great for Tennessee and out West, though it ran out of steam before it got back to the East Coast.
How does that fit with your quest for 'parity'?
You have a vastly different problem than most of us. And you are an exceptional client for Elon Musk and his power wall.
It is a shame. Providing reasonably reliable electric power is not an impossible task. But if the circumstances are such that you don't have it by now...you ain't gonna get it.
So you need a strong array with a full battery back up. And it appears it is coming. If I remember correctly you need no heating or cooling so your needs are easily met.
Your friends connection problem is easily solved. In fact a manual switch of the type used on generators will do it. He should ignore the power company and install such a switch which cuts him loose from the grid.
You have a vastly different problem than most of us. And you are an exceptional client for Elon Musk and his power wall.
I am on a couple Solar Power forums, as detailed information leaks out about the 'Power Wall' nobody is impressed with it. I will stay with lead/acid batteries.
I have one string of batteries wired up now, I need to buy two more strings of batteries and then our off-grid power system will be complete, and we can cut the wire. It has been a long slow effort to get to this point.
Quote:
... It is a shame. Providing reasonably reliable electric power is not an impossible task. But if the circumstances are such that you don't have it by now...you ain't gonna get it.
I agree.
Yesterday I ran some errands and on the way home, I passed by a down power line. A tree had fell and pulled the lines down. I was near a cellphone tower, so I called it in. After 25 minutes of listening to their muzak I finally get a person and reported the downed lines. Apparently nobody had called to report the outage yet. They don't really have any good way to know which towns are dark, without customers calling and reporting the outages.
They upgraded to 'smart meters' a few years ago, so they were able to lay-off the meter-readers. They can communicate with each meter over the wire to get your monthly meter reading. But with many thousands of meters it is a slow process even with their computers.
When I was shopping for land to buy and migrate here, many of the parcels I looked at were 10+ miles from the nearest power grid. I was fortunate to find a parcel that had power along the pavement.
Quote:
... So you need a strong array with a full battery back up. And it appears it is coming. If I remember correctly you need no heating or cooling so your needs are easily met.
Your friends connection problem is easily solved. In fact a manual switch of the type used on generators will do it. He should ignore the power company and install such a switch which cuts him loose from the grid.
We have no need for cooling. We heat with wood, for now. Eventually we plan to shift to Solar Thermal heating.
The neighbors who are net-metering have no batteries. They could upgrade to allow 'islanding' but then they would need batteries.
We are purchasing a property with two 12' X 20' solar panels and one 3'X 8' panel on the roof they are five years old on huge support bases or on the roof angle iron brackets. They provide two hot water heaters and most lighting for the main home plus attached apartment that also has an attached former dance hall ( yet to be tweeked for bedrooms). Thank you posters for the formulas ,wattage and cost recovery timelines!
I did read that some eastern US utilities are charging a grid connection fee AND a kilo-watt per hour charge. The grid connection fee is more than half the electricity used portion.
Many people are used to seeing one charge on their bill if their power supplier and distributor are both the same company. Here in PA we can choose who are supplier is which may be separate from the distributor so these are itemized on the bill. To keep it simple it's just billed through the distributor.
It's costing the the distributor just as much to maintain that infrastructure so of course the solar owner should be charged for using it.
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