Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I guess "sustainable" would be a more appropriate word. You make some great points
When energy radiates back up through the atmosphere there has to be some kind of effect on the particles up there. If the energy that would normally be radiated is captured, that can't happen.
but as you stated, I'm sure the effect is so small that it doesn't even matter at all. Maybe if we started building solar panels everywhere as a main source of energy it would start to matter?
For the Earth to be in thermal equilibrium all the Sun' Energy hitting the Earth must be radiated back into space ... eventually. Earth traps no Sun' Energy, when Energy IN - Energy OUT sequence is disrupted, e.g. extra green house gases trapped in atmosphere, Earth adjusts its temperature to radiate back all the energy it receives from Sun. Human increasing use of Sun' energy affects planetary energy balance, thus the Earth must strike a new global temperature to restore the balance. Just like coal formation, human sun trapping activity should lead to a decrease of the global temperature, a negligible decrease for time being.
All energy is renewable, it cannot be created or destroyed. Energy and mass are two forms of the same thing hence Einstein's famous equation E = mc2. Whether it's fossil fuels, wood, solar, wind or a nuclear explosion you are just borrowing it for a while.
The energy delivered by the sun compared to the current needs of the planet is about a 20,000:1 ratio. If we were able to derive all our energy needs from the sun it would be like borrowing $1 from a $20,000 pile. The issue is being able to transform that energy into a usable a form, storage etc. When you burn coal, wood or fossil fuel they are in a sense your battery.
The amount of thermodynamic free (usable) energy is constantly decreasing in Universe. Heat death of the Universe is a matter of time. It will be full of energy that cannot be converted into work.
The amount of thermodynamic free (usable) energy is constantly decreasing in Universe. Heat death of the Universe is a matter of time. It will be full of energy that cannot be converted into work.
Again it's a very small amount. If you were in the Superdome and robbed a little heat from the air to heat this small box up a little more it's inconsequential to the overall temperature in the Superdome. People have tried to make similar arguments about the heat being released by using fossil fuels, using a similar analogy it's like trying to suggest a candle is going to have some affect on the temperature when you have this giant heating system pumping 20,000 times the heat of the candle into it. It's a massive source of energy.
Secondly much of that energy is released as heat energy back into the atmosphere. Going back to our box in the Superdome that heat is going to escape from that box back into the Superdome.
Again it's about a 20,000:1 ratio, if the heat from the sun delivered to the earth's surface in a day was a pile of $20,000 we only need to borrow about $1. When the sun delivers $40,000 in two days we only need to take $2. In 50 days we will borrow $50 and the sun will have delivered 1 million.
You are generally correct. The problem, from where we stand today, is this: we need to generate all of our energy needs at almost exactly the same time that we need the energy. Consumer solar panels only generate energy for about 5 hours a day. Energy storage is the great hope in making solar energy really useful, but it is still really expensive in comparison to traditional grid energy production.
You are generally correct. The problem, from where we stand today, is this: we need to generate all of our energy needs at almost exactly the same time that we need the energy. Consumer solar panels only generate energy for about 5 hours a day. Energy storage is the great hope in making solar energy really useful, but it is still really expensive in comparison to traditional grid energy production.
Not so much. We can use ALL the Solar Existing and most being added for some decade(s) or so -- with ZERO Storage, as we already do tend use most Electricity at or near the time Solar PV is producing.
Storage with in the next 10 to 20 years would more likely be used to take Surplus Coal and Nuke generation from the Deep Night (very little power use --- most everyone is asleep), and bring it into the Daily Daytime Peak Use times.
When you compare that Daytime Solar hits the Daily Peak (when commercial power costs the most), with no Maintenance, or run-time fuels or costs . . . it is actually FAR Cheaper than building a New Nuke or New Coal plant which produces around the clock . . . much of the time for a worthless market.
Not so much. We can use ALL the Solar Existing and most being added for some decade(s) or so -- with ZERO Storage, as we already do tend use most Electricity at or near the time Solar PV is producing.
We really can't. Depending on where, precisely you live, solar panels generate useful electricity from ~10-3. You still need electricity from midnight to 10 and from 3 to midnight. On hot days, residential electricity usage actually peaks from 3-7. Typically, there is little useful electricity generated by residential solar at that time. So grid power is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
Storage with in the next 10 to 20 years would more likely be used to take Surplus Coal and Nuke generation from the Deep Night (very little power use --- most everyone is asleep), and bring it into the Daily Daytime Peak Use times.
Only if storage can get much, much cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
When you compare that Daytime Solar hits the Daily Peak (when commercial power costs the most), with no Maintenance, or run-time fuels or costs . . . it is actually FAR Cheaper than building a New Nuke or New Coal plant which produces around the clock . . . much of the time for a worthless market.
Nuclear and coal plants produce base load. Solar produces intermittent load. Electric grids need base load, and solar does not change that. Intermittent load is also required, some of which is solar, but some of which is not solar (even a grid with a great deal of solar needs other intermittent load, as well).
We really can't. Depending on where, precisely you live, solar panels generate useful electricity from ~10-3. You still need electricity from midnight to 10 and from 3 to midnight. On hot days, residential electricity usage actually peaks from 3-7. Typically, there is little useful electricity generated by residential solar at that time. So grid power is used.
What I am saying is we can just keep building (and building and building) for a good while ahead with JUST Solar PV, at no risk of saturating the Day Time Peak. There is NO POINT in tapping off and storing (with MUCH added Costs, and lossy, as well) ANY PV production, either now or in a Decade or more towards the future.
We can just use ALL the production during the Real Time as it is produced and much more even with additional and on-going build up. For now and a couple decades, ahead.
And a couple Decades ahead is the expected Service Life of most currently proposed Storage Systems . . . So, they would need to be replaced by then, anyway. There is no point building ANY storage now, when its real application is way ahead -- and by then the Dynamics of the System will have likely changed, as well.
Quote:
On hot days, residential electricity usage actually peaks from 3-7. Typically, there is little useful electricity generated by residential solar at that time. So grid power is used.
That is Daily Heat "Lag." From the cumulative heat of the Summer day(s). If the goal were to exactly match that, since the Heat Lag is from the Sun Warming things . . . Solar Thermal has the same exact "Lag." Which matches the Air Conditioning Load exactly. Again, no storage.
Quote:
Only if storage can get much, much cheaper.
hmmmm. No. Big Storage already does exist on the Grid Level, and has for Decades, and more is not built . . . because there simply is no real practical demand for it. And where it does exist -- it is used exactly opposite of what you (have been mis-taught?) are proposing the use of such storage would be.
It is used solely to take surplus Base-Load generation from the Deep Night and use it during the Day Time Peak. Again -- there is NO POINT to attempting to Store Daytime Solar on a Grid Base system, for at least a Decade or likely more, ahead. If you do not believe me, maybe study a bit of this?
See? Follow the Night-time Storage for Day-Time Use? Things are Completely Backwards of what you have been mis-taught, right?
Quote:
Nuclear and coal plants produce base load.
Right. And base-load production is VASTLY Surplus. We match on that? It is so surplus it is free overnight in some areas.
Do you follow what has happened over the past few decades? One big thing is Reduction and Conservation ACTUALLY worked. (Yeah, we were all a little surprised on that one. Especially the Big Central Plant Coal folks I work with from time-to-time). The demise of incandescent light bulbs and shift to T-5 and LED bulbs has really added up. Along with the de-industrialization of US, and the shift to VFD Motor Drives . . . it is grim times in Olde Skool Base-Load Generation Land.
Quote:
Solar produces intermittent load.
Solar creates a Very Predictable and Very Reliable Daily Production.
Which closely matches demand. As we have went over (and over) above.
And with just a little bit of Time-of-Use Shift and Demand-Tuning, it can match the Daily Demand Curves, exactly.
Again, with No Storage.
Quote:
Electric grids need base load, and solar does not change that.
As already noted, US Base Load Production is now in Decades Ahead Surplus. Really. Coal and Nukes are losing their @ss. I know this. My Coal Generation Customers are in Bankruptcy.
Quote:
Intermittent load is also required, some of which is solar, but some of which is not solar (even a grid with a great deal of solar needs other intermittent load, as well).
But in all of that . . . no batteries or storage are needed for the Solar aspect for a Decade, or Decades or more to come.
Please read my post in the Windmills are Bad Thread.
"Instead of wind turbines and all the rest of the "green" foo-foo energy gathering technology I would like to see the country and, indeed, the world, build an energy system based on renewable nuclear fission. By this I mean a system of nuclear reactors that can "burn" fuel recovered from partially used fuel rods as well as made from non fissile minerals in specifically designed breeder reactors. The beauty of this system is it would use up all the transuranic waste fuels that have very long half lives and effectively create more fuel than it uses. This system has the possibility of providing utility grade electric power to the entire world for a very long time without generating billions of tons of polluting Carbon dioxide. This system is a GREEN as it gets.
Nuclear power is not dead in this country as it still generates a substantial proportion of the electric energy demand. We did stop building nuclear power plants because the Fossil fuel, Natural Gas, petroleum and mostly the coal, industries lobbied for absurdly long and complex licensing programs designed to make it uneconomical to build conventional nuclear fission facilities that produce the long half life "waste" material that can fuel the new technology.
By switching to Nuclear technology with full fuel recovery, breeding and reuse we could eliminate the carbon fueled plants and their emissions, possibly, continuing to use most of the machinery by just replacing the steam generating boilers. We could also dismantle the, to some but not me, unsightly wind turbine farms as well as the solar electric arrays that will never be economical without government subsidy.
IMO the new Nuclear plants, along with the rest of the utility systems, should be based on a systems like the TVA and Bonneville Power. These government owned systems would not be subject to the excess expenses of the privately owned power companies. They have proved to be nothing but a "safe" place for the wealthy to park their riches to gain returns without any market risks. Economically Utility systems are natural monopolies and should be owned by everyone as represented by a government agency." GregW
Realize that ALL large electric generators are designed to generate into the base load. Utilities have used a technology that can store literally thousands of gigawatt hours of surplus electricity generated at night for use during the day. These are called "Pumped Storage" hydroelectric facilities and store the energy by pumping water to the top of hill and when needed dropping the water through the pumps that are now generating electricity. These facilities can even be used to store energy from wind farms and other alternative sources.
These facilities are very efficient and do not have any major environmental effect during operation beyond killing a few fish. Even this can be avoided it the pool at the bottom of an abandoned open pit mine is used as the lower pool and a new pool developed at the top of the mine. That avoids having any fish in the system as well as reusing a gigantic eyesore.
. . . see the country and, indeed, the world, build an energy system based on renewable nuclear fission. . . .
Fortunately, at this point, most of US have better sense than that.
But I do see a few Billionaires trying to hold on to the Central Plant model with that nonsense, falsely labeling it as "Clean Energy." Yeah, and my sheet do no stink.
Problem is there is No Way to clean up the existing mess -- and there is Much More "Mess" than just the residual fuel.
And every cycle, recycle and handling just makes more and more mess.
Just whose kids do you think you should dump all this totally un-needed mess upon?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Especially the Big Central Plant Coal folks I work with from time-to-time). The demise of incandescent light bulbs and shift to T-5 and LED bulbs has really added up. Along with the de-industrialization of US, and the shift to VFD Motor Drives . . . it is grim times in Olde Skool Base-Load Generation Land. 
