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And for many years, Pennsylvania purchased electricity from nuclear-rich Illinois.
There are large portions of the Midwest who heat with natural gas. My experience is that it is 3-40% cheaper than an all-electric home.
That's generally true. This year may be an exception due to the spike in NG prices. One thing I can say is the advances in cold climate heat pumps may be a viable alternative to electric resistance heat.
that may be true for newer construction but most places I've lived here in the upper Midwest have had NG heating and cooking. One place even had a old mantle-style lantern on the wall hooked up to the NG system -- the owners told me the building was built back when NG delivery was more consistent and reliable than electrical delivery and the gas lantern was intended as a backup in case the lights went out. Anyways, all-electric is cheaper for construction because you already have the wiring for all the other electrical needs and you don't need to add the piping for gas.
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Originally Posted by bfrabel
Because that's not what California wants. Many cities in CA (along with a few other cities elsewhere, such as NYC) have placed a ban on natural gas for all new construction. Not just for heating, but also for uses like cooking equipment in restaurants, and water heaters in hotels and large apartment buildings.
Electricity is way less efficient and more expensive for stuff like this, but it doesn't matter, that's what they want.
Then they send out emergency alerts to everyone's cell phone pleading to conserve electricity, because they don't have enough capacity for everyone to use electricity for everything like they mandated.
For majorly dense multi-unit buildings like those found in most of NYC, it's a safety issue. One gas leak and an errant spark can level an entire building in seconds and kill dozens of people.
That's generally true. This year may be an exception due to the spike in NG prices. One thing I can say is the advances in cold climate heat pumps may be a viable alternative to electric resistance heat.
Warm climates have already been using heat pumps for a while. I remember hearing commercials in FL about how heat pumps were required decades ago. The tech for cold weather heat pump systems (for both water heater and HVAC) has improved much more and a lot of new construction has it here in the Midwest.
As many have pointed out, the cost of putting natural gas in homes is expensive, especially if it is putting gas into a newly developed area. If we’re just talking about a vacant lot in an existing neighborhood with natural gas, that may not be prohibitive, but if you are taking it out to a new development, then there is a lot of infrastructure required. I know in FL, they pay for that via CDD bonds, and while those neighborhoods can be popular, a lot of people would prefer to move into a place without the CDD, as it is typically a couple-few hundred a month for 10+ years on top of regular taxes. You have to consider costs of bringing the gas in to the overall monthly costs. In places like FL, the benefit from use is likely minimal, since they are not having to heat water up from a cold temperature or have more than a couple heating months yearly.
There are cities in other states that have banned new natural gas connections, because despite being more efficient and cheaper it's a fossil fuel, which gives it an environmentally nasty reputation. Here we still build new homes with natural gas, most people prefer it. For us it's the stove, water heater, furnace, and one of the fireplaces.
Also, NG isn't usually available as much in rural locations. I had propane at my last, semi-rural home (and was lucky to have it during power outages), but I specifically picked a home with NG int the city where I live now. Interestingly, some of my neighbors are hooked to the NG, but most aren't and have all-electric homes. I wanted NG for my WH, stove, heat, and most importantly as a steady source of fuel for the whole-house generator. Previously I'd have to worry about getting a fill-up of propane if the power went out in the winter and the propane trucks couldn't get through to fuel the generator; now I'm set all the time.
During Uri,the only utility we have is landline phone and natural gas.
No water,no electricity,all cell phones stop working.
Come to think of it,the water heater is in the attic,if the water is drained,how does it function?
Houses built since 2000?all have furnace and water heater in the attic.
During Katrina,dead people were found in the attic after the flooding,those are older homes so the water heater and furnace are in the garage,not attic.
The governor of LA urged folks to go to the attic with an axe,how many have axes in their homes,one young guy said he lied on the floor and used his legs to break the wooden panels of the ceiling and managed to escape?
The flooding was so bad,folks who lived on second floor thought they dont have to evacuate,only see the water rises higher and higher.
The local tele tower was knocked out,so cell phones do not work
I had NG when I lived in an urban area, but have been stuck with propane for my last couple of homes. Big increase in propane price here; last year, it cost about $500 to fill my tank; last month it was over $700.
I believe California is bringing some of the their NG power plants back on line.
Warm climates have already been using heat pumps for a while. I remember hearing commercials in FL about how heat pumps were required decades ago. The tech for cold weather heat pump systems (for both water heater and HVAC) has improved much more and a lot of new construction has it here in the Midwest.
As many have pointed out, the cost of putting natural gas in homes is expensive, especially if it is putting gas into a newly developed area. If we’re just talking about a vacant lot in an existing neighborhood with natural gas, that may not be prohibitive, but if you are taking it out to a new development, then there is a lot of infrastructure required. I know in FL, they pay for that via CDD bonds, and while those neighborhoods can be popular, a lot of people would prefer to move into a place without the CDD, as it is typically a couple-few hundred a month for 10+ years on top of regular taxes. You have to consider costs of bringing the gas in to the overall monthly costs. In places like FL, the benefit from use is likely minimal, since they are not having to heat water up from a cold temperature or have more than a couple heating months yearly.
Lennox developed the first prototype that achieved the DOE’s Cold Climate Heat Pump Technology Challenge’s standards about a year ahead of schedule.
Efficient to -10. That's amazing for a whole house ducted unit. Mitsubishi 'Hyper heat' mini splits work to -10, but that's for non-ducted. We have two Mitsu mini-splits that are heat pumps and they provide usable heat to about 10 degrees. We may add a few hyper heat units to our house. They are cheap to operate- very miserly on electric consumption and not that expensive. If we can get enough heat out of them, we only need to operate our resistance heat for a few weeks or a month out of the year. We have spells to -20 or more for a few weeks in the dead of winter.
Efficient to -10. That's amazing for a whole house ducted unit. Mitsubishi 'Hyper heat' mini splits work to -10, but that's for non-ducted. We have two Mitsu mini-splits that are heat pumps and they provide usable heat to about 10 degrees. We may add a few hyper heat units to our house. They are cheap to operate- very miserly on electric consumption and not that expensive. If we can get enough heat out of them, we only need to operate our resistance heat for a few weeks or a month out of the year. We have spells to -20 or more for a few weeks in the dead of winter.
I agree that newer model heat pumps are much more effective at providing usable heat at lower temps. I have an 18 SEER Carrier Infinity heat pump as a backup system that I'm sure is probably more efficient. The only problem, for me, is that my gas-fired hot water heat FEELS so much warmer IMO, plus it's cleaner too.
For majorly dense multi-unit buildings like those found in most of NYC, it's a safety issue. One gas leak and an errant spark can level an entire building in seconds and kill dozens of people.
Right. NYC with a population of 9 million, those catastrophes must occur, what, 60 or 70 times every week?
The last several posts here indicate one thing--It shouldn't be a matter of All or None..Different climate, different unfra-structure, different geology, different resources all require different solutions.
We should be taking our hints from Mother Nature-- The "specialist species" are the first to go extinct when things change, while the generalists are more likely to survive...and also, with several species solving the problems of survival, each in its own way, when things do change drastically, at one or two will survive.
When has the govt ever made the right decision to solve any problem?
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