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Read it again or did you read any of it? The economy in Spain was enjoying good times like the rest of the world, but they weren't creating real long lasting jobs, now they are in a very bad position.
The renewable energy market there was driven by government mandates starting about 2000, the chickens are coming home to roost so to speak. How much the renewable drive has to do with their problems can certainly be debated but certainly exorbitantly high energy rates is not helping anything. You're not going to create good jobs in such a climate as they will go elsewhere seeking lower energy rates.
Another very good point made by that report is much of solar installed are really inefficient systems that they are now stuck with maintaining for their lifetime. As newer technologies become available within the next few decades that might actually be able to compete with coal investment in those technologies will yield a far greater return.
The unemployment rate dropped by 50% during that period. You can try all you want to spin it into something bad, but it doesn't hold water. Whats more Germany and Denmark have been even more aggressive than Spain. Their results are also good.
How's the economy of West Virginia over that period?
The unemployment rate dropped by 50% during that period.
And again driven by other factors and now it's the highest in the EU. The Spanish study is about recent developments, e.g boom/bust. Now it's a bust.
The premise is that mandates drove the development of renewable energy in Spain and not the market. Sound familiar? You had a whole bunch of developers rushing to meet the mandates and could only do so because of the enormous subsidies they were receiving. You have a market driven not by a need or economic viability but government spending. Again does this sound familiar?
Quote:
"The price of a comprehensive energy rate, paid by the end consumer in Spain, would have to be increased 31 percent to begin to repay the historic debt generated by this rate deficit mainly produced by the subsidies to renewables, according to Spain's energy regulator. Spanish citizens must therefore cope with either an increase of electricity rates or increased taxes (and public deficit), as will the U.S. if it follows Spain's model.
How's the economy of West Virginia over that period?
As far as unemployment it was already quite low compared to Spain at the start of that time period starting at 6.5% in 1999. Appears to be a steady decrease to a low hovering between 4.5% and 4.2% for half of 2007 and all of 2008 when Spain begins to spike.. Went up to 6.9% this last month from 4.5% in December.
As far as unemployment it was already quite low compared to Spain at the start of that time period starting at 6.5% in 1999. Appears to be a steady decrease to a low hovering between 4.5% and 4.2% for half of 2007 and all of 2008 when Spain begins to spike.. Went up to 6.9% this last month from 4.5% in December.
The per capita income in Spain is higher than that in WV. You keep talking about how this has wrecked the Spanish economy, yet there seems to be no indication of a problem.
You keep talking about how this has wrecked the Spanish economy
Did I say that? No, at most I suggested it has exacerbated the economic downturn there. Certainly if you have high energy bills that is going to effect the economy long term under any circumstances. They have a huge deficit built up because of the subsidies given to renewables, it's not even paid for yet. I'll go back to my 'The chickens are coming home to roost". And they'll continue to roost over the next decade if not longer. Again the study has to do with the renewable energy market and is not meant to be an overall examination of Spain's economy in that time frame. This I'd imagine will be the first example of many of failed government programs where renewables were mandated.
So what specifically do you disagree with in the study? or are you still waiting to read it?
As far as the overall economy the current rate of unemployment is almost 16%, one article cited they expect it to go to 20%. Here I fixed your graph to indicate current economic conditions. Not a problem? And again not sure why this is relevant to this discussion except maybe as diversion from the real issue?
Last edited by thecoalman; 08-01-2020 at 05:30 PM..
I think we should eventually develop an continent wide electrical generation and distribution system based on the French model of Nuclear, with full fuel recycle, base load and the "natural" alternates gathering energy when and where available. The resulting load and supply swings can be controlled by judicious use of direct and pumped hydropower.
This will allow coal to be used to smelt metals and hold up the ground it is under while oil provides transportation fuel and petrochemical supplies.
Developing a well thought out integrated energy supply in the most efficient manner will provide the longest and cheapest overall supply of continuous and renewable energy for our economy and our people. I can only wish this would happen, but I expect individual and commercial interests will prevent an integrated development. The result will be a polluting, expensive and inefficient mess that will cost more and provide less than what is possible.
I think we should eventually develop an continent wide electrical generation and distribution system based on the French model of Nuclear, with full fuel recycle, base load and the "natural" alternates gathering energy when and where available. The resulting load and supply swings can be controlled by judicious use of direct and pumped hydropower.
This will allow coal to be used to smelt metals and hold up the ground it is under while oil provides transportation fuel and petrochemical supplies.
Developing a well thought out integrated energy supply in the most efficient manner will provide the longest and cheapest overall supply of continuous and renewable energy for our economy and our people. I can only wish this would happen, but I expect individual and commercial interests will prevent an integrated development. The result will be a polluting, expensive and inefficient mess that will cost more and provide less than what is possible.
The problem with nuclear is cost. The current estimates are about $7-8/W and there no assurance it will not cause substantially more.
I believe that cost can be reduced by assembly line production of the nuclear steam generators and by using multiple units at each location. Building each nuclear power plant as a unique installation was one of the ways conventional power created overly costly nuclear facilities. One example of "assembly line" nuclear steam systems is our nuclear submarine reactors. New reactor designs are not made for each ship but they all get one or more of the standard design. The utility equivalent would be a series of 900 MW reactors that could be grouped as needed.
Sudden idea: why do we not use a group of these submarine (about 300 MW each) power plants a I believe that cost can be reduced by assembly line production of the nuclear steam generators and by using multiple units at each location. Building each nuclear power plant as a unique installation was one of the ways conventional power created overly costly nuclear facilities. One example of "assembly line" nuclear steam systems is our nuclear submarine reactors. New reactor designs are not made for each ship but they all get one or more of the standard design.
Why not use a group of these (about 300 MW each) power plants at one site instead of building bigger and bigger one off reactors. I mean install 10 ship reactors for 3,000 MW instead of one 3,000 MW device. The steam/electric side could be as big as needed. I suggest one 1,500 MW generator, and two 750's for 3,000 MW total.
I believe that cost can be reduced by assembly line production of the nuclear steam generators and by using multiple units at each location. Building each nuclear power plant as a unique installation was one of the ways conventional power created overly costly nuclear facilities. One example of "assembly line" nuclear steam systems is our nuclear submarine reactors. New reactor designs are not made for each ship but they all get one or more of the standard design. The utility equivalent would be a series of 900 MW reactors that could be grouped as needed.
Sudden idea: why do we not use a group of these submarine (about 300 MW each) power plants a I believe that cost can be reduced by assembly line production of the nuclear steam generators and by using multiple units at each location. Building each nuclear power plant as a unique installation was one of the ways conventional power created overly costly nuclear facilities. One example of "assembly line" nuclear steam systems is our nuclear submarine reactors. New reactor designs are not made for each ship but they all get one or more of the standard design.
Why not use a group of these (about 300 MW each) power plants at one site instead of building bigger and bigger one off reactors. I mean install 10 ship reactors for 3,000 MW instead of one 3,000 MW device. The steam/electric side could be as big as needed. I suggest one 1,500 MW generator, and two 750's for 3,000 MW total.
Commercial nuclear designed was standardized a generation ago. The French stamped out the Westinghouse standard design that became the South Texas Project here in the US.
Submarine reactor are quite small and thermally inefficient. They would not be cost effective in an electricity production mode. Even the Nimitz carrier class reactors would only generate about 165 MW of electricity. Civilian reactors are almost an order of magnitude bigger. In addition naval cores are highly enriched. Final point is an apples to apples comparison -- naval reactors are rated on their thermal output, civilian on electrical. Rough rule of thumb would be to divide the thermal output by 3 to get the electrical output.
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