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I know you are right..BUT What about the pain and anguish they cause their family?
To quote the last thing my loved one wrote to us, "I am sorry, I promise this is the last time I will hurt any of you."
She believed her ongoing problems and pain would continue to burden the people who loved her and she could not be the cause of any more worry and anguish. It was her perspective. Right or wrong. I never for a minute felt she did it to hurt any of us. Our pain may continue, but hers is gone. And in time ours will ease. That is the equation, and it offers a comfort that is hard to explain to people who did not love her as deeply as her family and closest friends did.
I know you are right..BUT What about the pain and anguish they cause their family?
QFT and that's the point of this thread. The deceased was upset at me and thought I didnt give a damn when I wouldn't buy him liquor before his death, yet he didnt give a damn about what emotional wreckage he left behind. People seem to be taking this person's side when I reported he had legal and substance abuse issues, long before any other problems were apparent. I forgot to mention this, but he shot himself in the foot in fall 2011, lost some of two toes, and yet the family kept loaded weapons around. Another parenting failure.
While the mental health problems may not have been caused by the family issues or the drugs, they seemed to greatly tip him over the edge. I don't have a single arrest, have worked all my adult life, don't have substance abuse issues, haven't dealt any drugs, and yet I'm the monster here. The deceased was talking about getting on disability last Thursday, yet never worked any job for more than a few weeks to my knowledge. To be frank, what bothers most is the insinuation that I am the problem as a hardworking, functioning, normal person, when the deceased never worked, never could function without supervision, and hadn't been normal for years. While I can understand those that say I have a harsh opinion, I don't understand why I am the villain here. I've done nothing wrong.
Also, the financial issues most certainly are relevant. Perhaps the greatest stressors among people today come from financial issues in this lousy economy. Financial pressures can drive otherwise reasonable people to do unreasonable things, but this stressor was never there for the deceased, and he hadnt been reasonable for years. He had no knowledge of this stress and I doubt he would have made it this far had his family not been wealthy enough to pay for all this care. Had this stressor been added, I have no doubt he would have wilted earlier.
I had a bipolar girlfriend from 2006-2008 and have dealt with mentally ill people, but my patience with her as a lover was far and above what I had for the deceased. Though sick, she had no legal trouble, sought treatment, worked some, etc. She also knew the deceased and thinks the illicit drugs may have pushed him beyond the point of return. Her medication was eventually dialed in and she is a fully functioning person now. I endured a lot of emotional trauma as a result of her mental illness, so this isn't my first ride on this train, but please excuse me if I don't have the same empathy for someone who dealt hard drugs, took hard drugs, had a DUI, a weapons charge, and possession charges for narcotics vs. a law abiding, though sick, person who truly wanted to improve. I still don't consider him a bad guy, but people who are ignoring the warts and act like he was purely innocent in all this need to think more deeply about it.
QFT and that's the point of this thread. The deceased was upset at me and thought I didnt give a damn when I wouldn't buy him liquor before his death, yet he didnt give a damn about what emotional wreckage he left behind. People seem to be taking this person's side when I reported he had legal and substance abuse issues, long before any other problems were apparent. I forgot to mention this, but he shot himself in the foot in fall 2011, lost some of two toes, and yet the family kept loaded weapons around. Another parenting failure.
While the mental health problems may not have been caused by the family issues or the drugs, they seemed to greatly tip him over the edge. I don't have a single arrest, have worked all my adult life, don't have substance abuse issues, haven't dealt any drugs, and yet I'm the monster here. The deceased was talking about getting on disability last Thursday, yet never worked any job for more than a few weeks to my knowledge. To be frank, what bothers most is the insinuation that I am the problem as a hardworking, functioning, normal person, when the deceased never worked, never could function without supervision, and hadn't been normal for years. While I can understand those that say I have a harsh opinion, I don't understand why I am the villain here. I've done nothing wrong.
Also, the financial issues most certainly are relevant. Perhaps the greatest stressors among people today come from financial issues in this lousy economy. Financial pressures can drive otherwise reasonable people to do unreasonable things, but this stressor was never there for the deceased, and he hadnt been reasonable for years. He had no knowledge of this stress and I doubt he would have made it this far had his family not been wealthy enough to pay for all this care. Had this stressor been added, I have no doubt he would have wilted earlier.
I had a bipolar girlfriend from 2006-2008 and have dealt with mentally ill people, but my patience with her as a lover was far and above what I had for the deceased. Though sick, she had no legal trouble, sought treatment, worked some, etc. She also knew the deceased and thinks the illicit drugs may have pushed him beyond the point of return. Her medication was eventually dialed in and she is a fully functioning person now. I endured a lot of emotional trauma as a result of her mental illness, so this isn't my first ride on this train, but please excuse me if I don't have the same empathy for someone who dealt hard drugs, took hard drugs, had a DUI, a weapons charge, and possession charges for narcotics vs. a law abiding, though sick, person who truly wanted to improve. I still don't consider him a bad guy, but people who are ignoring the warts and act like he was purely innocent in all this need to think more deeply about it.
One thing I have noticed about public internet forums is the irony of people who condemn others for being judgemental while at the same time being extremely judgemental themselves. Those who have used such venemous terms to condemn you should get down off their moral high horse for a moment.
Now, having said that, I do think your opinion of your mentally ill friend is too harsh in that you have failed to take into account the degree to which he may have lacked free will because of his mental illness. And there should have been no hesitancy about attending the service to show support for those still left behind, despite the understandable disgust you harbored about your friend's self destructive actions (long before his actual death) and the pain he caused his family. Your attendance at the service does not indicate approval of what your friend had done or what he had become, but can indicate your sorrow and regret about those very outcomes.
You are a contributing, functioning member of society, not some sort of monster as some people here would have it. You are lacking in compassion, perhaps, in some respects. This may be a defect, but we all have defects of one type or another. Your harshest critics seem to be saying that your mentally ill friend is to be excused for all his extremely serious defects but you are not to be excused for your far lesser ones. That is the irony I referred to. It is a bit hypocritical. But it is also typical of these boards. Attack mode is the favored style of some, as opposed to reasoned and logical analysis.
Your attitude is beyond comprehension. You hated your son-in-law so much that you value your continuing running him down over your relationship with your own daughter. Your own stubborness is the reason she wants you to stay away. Your son-in-law is dead; what is the point of dredging up the past and what is the point of the on-going tug-of-war as to whether you or your daughter is "right"? You are consumed by hatred to the point of allowing your relationship with your own daughter to fall victim to it. Whatever happened to the concept of keeping one's mouth closed? You could (if you wanted to) keep your mouth closed on the issue despite the disagreement between you and your daughter. Disagreement does not have to poison a relationship if the two parties will agree to disagree and drop the matter. It seems you have a fanatical need to have the last word and to be "right". How sad for your daughter and your grandchildren that you have chosen to poison the relationships with them. But you are in denial about your own role, and even blame your dead son-in-law for it. If he "won" (an absurd proposition), then it is because you allowed him to win.
When this situation first arose, I tried and tried to comfort daughter with tears and soothing words. SHE's the one who brought up "why are you so upset? You didn't even like him". That is when I reminded her of all she had told me and made me not like him and I was so upset because she was hurting so much. So, chuck you Farley. Judgemental much?
[quote=stepka;30563974]^^^^This^^^^ I see no reason to keep bringing it up and poison the relationship w/ your daughter. Why? quote]
See above response. I do not keep it up. I just talk superficially now. I do not address the "elephant in the room".
[quote=KaraBenNemsi;30568270]Up to a few years back Roman Catholic leaders denied church burial rites to members of the flock who took their own lives...
"Up to a few years back?" "Roman Catholic leaders [emphasis mine] denied church burial rites?" Surely, you jest. This sounds like another cheap attack on Catholics that, interestingly, singles them out among other Christian religions that once also frowned upon suicides, but that's another story.
First of all, RC "leaders" are in no position to "deny" burial in local cemeteries. Also, the RC church long ago jettisoned its view of suicide. As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic church has always considered the mental state of the deceased in cases of suicide.
I can't read this anymore. Did it ever occur to you (OP) that this person turned to drugs to try to find happiness in his miserable life, he couldn't hold down a job due to whatever made him so miserable, and then drugs. No it doesn't sound logical to you, or to most of society, but I've seen it happen.
Don't try to fully understand mental illness, just be aware it exists, and be happy you don't fully understand it or have to deal with it. There are kids in third world countries that don't even have a bathroom, or showers, or food, and they are happier than some of the people in this country that have it all. Make sense? No it doesn't, I don't understand it all either, but mental illness and the stress that comes with it to drive someone that off, to suicide, is real and unfortunate. Try to understand, be compassionate, and hope it never turns out to be you. NO ONE that is healthy and sound wants to kill themselves.
[quote=tamiznluv;30576485]When this situation first arose, I tried and tried to comfort daughter with tears and soothing words. SHE's the one who brought up "why are you so upset? You didn't even like him". That is when I reminded her of all she had told me and made me not like him and I was so upset because she was hurting so much. So, chuck you Farley. Judgemental much?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka
^^^^This^^^^ I see no reason to keep bringing it up and poison the relationship w/ your daughter. Why? quote]
See above response. I do not keep it up. I just talk superficially now. I do not address the "elephant in the room".
Ha! Now you've changed your story to make it sound better. Go back and re-read your two previous posts. What is the truth? Your situation vis à vis your daughter seems very fluid, subject to change to fit your rhetoric of the moment.
This thread reminds of a family that were friends of my family, growing up. They had 2 children, a boy and a girl. The parents had high expectations for their kids. The boy was extremely quiet without many friends his age, while his sister was the exact opposite. The boy got high grades in school and was never a "problem." However, many times, I would hear how depressed he was in his teens, crying uncontrollable to his mother. At the time, they thought it was just a phase he was going through. When he went away to college, at age 20, over Easter break, he shot himself in the head in his dorm room. I've always felt sad, thinking what he must have gone through to get to that point, and how very sad that he didn't find the help he so desperately needed. It never entered my mind that he would not be worthy to mourn. I know his family misses him terribly and feels a lot of guilt, but that doesn't diminish his worth as a human being.
Last edited by smpliving; 07-20-2013 at 09:18 AM..
You have described in detail his deterioration and mental illness, and yet that does not seem to figure into your scathing judgement. Your principal focus seems to be on the fact that he came from a financially secure background, and that money was wasted on him.
Quite honestly, I think your description and question reflects some seriously ugly values, and perhaps you could skip the memorial service of this "good friend" and spend that time to better advantage examining your own views and values.
I can't resist replying even thought this is an old post and the original poster will probably not read it. Most people do not understand the complexity of the human brain. The delicate balance of chemical combinations that result in emotions and reactions to emotions.
What a 'normal' persons reaction to irrational sadness/depression is - comes from a fortunate balance of chemicals, they have no problem realizing their reaction is irrational or unfounded. While someone who suffers from a mental illness would react completely differently.
The way you percieve the world and your reaction to it, and the way you see yourself in it, is chemical, electrical and biological as well as learned and habitual.
This guy had a chemical imbalance known as mental illness and the main defense against it is antidepressants, which one of the major common side effects is suicidal thoughts and depression.
On Saturday, I was returning to my home from the grocery store and I came upon a horrific sight, I've never seen before and I know I'll never see again. A man had literally parked his car in the middle of the road and had gotten out of his car. He than shot himself in the head. As it turned out, I was the first person to come upon this awful scene which I shall not describe other than to say there was blood everywhere.
I think of the trauma this man caused his family. There had been an argument and the family very quickly arrived at the scene after I did and listening to their screams and cries was almost intolerable. I had to restrain several family members who wanted to view the body.
I think of the trauma this man caused the first responders who have to clean up after this mess.
I think of the trauma he caused a local physician who assessed his vital signs and determined that nothing could be done.
I think of the trauma he caused the neighborhood who forever more will likely remember what happened at that point on the road at the entrance to where they all live.
Others can debate whether a memorial service should be held for such a person. I simply wish I could forget all about him and what I saw. I don't think those images will leave my mind until the day that I die.
Professionals in the medical and law enforcement fields are trained to compartmentalize the situation they are dealing with.
This isn't to say they aren't affected by a n event while the event is taking place concerning their job.
If these people that are paid to deal with situations like this are traumatized by it they would not be in the professions they are in to begin with.
Concerning dealing with a traumatic event yourself; you will move on just as I did when I was first on an accident scene where a woman was decapitated by a steel post running into her cars cabin.
The person you saw committing suicide was in his own hell in this life and your disapproval and shock holds absolutely no weight in what he did and why he did it.
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I know you are right..BUT What about the pain and anguish they cause their family?
Stick to your guns
