Would you rent an off the grid house? (Hilo: renter, new house)

[mdand3boys]

One cannot just hook up their solar system to HELCO. It would take at least several months to get all of the documents and work completed. You have to sign a special agreement with Helco, you have to have an electrical engineer approve your design, have it inspected by Helco, etc.

You also do not get paid by Helco for excess electricity that you generate. They "bank" the excess against your future usage. In that regard, it is not true net metering like some states allow.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

I've heard a lot of stories of folks who have done a grid-tie system and they don't seem to have nearly the amount of savings one would hope for. I'm not exactly sure why.

The power companies are not making it easy. They basically don't want the hassle, so they only do the minimum required by law. And part of that is, they only pay a much, much lower rate than what they charge to consumers. That's why it works best as a seasonal offset... you bank credit in summers, draw it down in winters kinda thing.

If you are only 50' from a working pole you should not have a problem getting a drop.

You only have a cesspool? Now THAT would give me pause.

[hotzcatz]

The house was built a hundred years ago. Literally, it was built in 1911. At that point in time, it didn't even have indoor plumbing, so in comparison the cesspool is a very minor concern. At that point in time, the houses had was was called a "gang cesspool" and the water from the kitchen sinks went in a cement trough down the hill alongside all the houses. Some folks who were here as kids have told me they used to build little boats out of coconut bark and line them up in the cement gutter and then empty out a sinkful of water to race the boats down the hill. Kinda amazing how plumbing has changed. Cesspools are still common in Hawaii, even with new construction. At least, on this island and on agricultural lots.

Originally, with this house there was the "old" outhouse which is as you probably think of an outhouse being nothing much more than a seat over a hole in the ground. Then, sometime in the sixties, the "new" outhouse was built. It's still out there although the plumbing part doesn't function anymore and I just use it as a garden shed. But it had actual toilets plumbed in. Two of them - each one in their own room, side by side in the outhouse building. Apparently, each family had their own separate toilet. At one time, there were about four houses tucked into our backyard but they are all gone except for the walkways and the old outhouses and one of the shower houses. Then, sometime in the nineties, when this house was still owned by the sugar company, there was a fellow in a wheel chair here so they build the current toilet room which is almost inside plumbing since it's enclosed and all. However, it is off the front porch instead of actually inside the house. There is also a toilet in the shower house off the back door of the house but that's across a breezeway and technically not really inside the house, either.

Hmm, yeah, MDand3boys, it doesn't sound like getting an official grid inter-tie with Helco is an easy thing. I think disconnecting the house from the Helco meter and just attaching the meter to a few outlets which we can then use to top up the solar system may be the way to go. That way there are two separate systems so we don't have to get them to dance together. We would still have the minimum $20 per month payment to Helco just to have the outlets available. We are running this whole house on a 1,500 watt inverter which is about the same as one outlet, so having four or six outlets on the Helco meter should give us much more power than we are currently used to having. Dunno what Helco would think of that, though.

[mdand3boys]

Originally Posted by OpenD

...And part of that is, they only pay a much, much lower rate than what they charge to consumers. That's why it works best as a seasonal offset... you bank credit in summers, draw it down in winters kinda thing...

Not quite true...

In Net Energy Metering (as applied by HELCO), the customer connects to the utility grid allowing it to export surplus electricity into the grid. The customer will receive credits at full retail value which can be used to offset electricity purchases over a 12 month period.

It is not true net metering as used by some states and utility commissions though, because you will not ever get a check back for the excess energy, if you create more than you use.

[hotzcatz]

Hmm, it would take a fairly large (and expensive) system to provide excess power, I would think. When the power company gives electrical credits, would you happen to know if those can be used to offset the minimum monthly payment required to the electrical company? They have those charges associated with providing service which are separate from the electricity provided. Can the electrical credits earned by providing power to Helco be used to offset those providing service charges? Otherwise, there will be a minimum charge each month no matter how much power is made.

[mdand3boys]

No, the credits can only offset the amount of electricity used. You still have to pay the minimum charge, which is to offset the cost of the meter reading and billing operations.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Hmm, it would take a fairly large (and expensive) system to provide excess power, I would think.

Systems are getting more efficient and the prices are steadily coming down, so we're passing through a cusp where the whole thing becomes much more practical for areas with plenty of sunshine.

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

When the power company gives electrical credits, would you happen to know if those can be used to offset the minimum monthly payment required to the electrical company? ...etc...

No, because they are not doing one single thing more in this regard than they are required to do. You could say "They're not big fans of the idea."

They're not dealing in dollars, for one thing. They're dealing in Killowatt Hours. You bank a kwh, you draw a kwh, it's a wash. But you still need to pay all the non-energy costs associated with an account. And yeah, the average homeowner is not going to get into pulling money out of the system, but I'm involved with the planning for a commercial project which has the potential to pump an excess $half-million worth of electricity into the grid per year, and one of the sticking points is the rate which Helco is willing to pay for that clean, green, alternative energy. T'aint much.

And of course you have to get their permission, work with them to get your hookup approved, etc. That much is obvious, right? What may not be so obvious is how long they can take, which is why I suggested getting started talking to them NOW. It took my neighbor over 2 years to get a simple hookup of a power drop, because their records were a mess.

[cynmkolohe]

Hi Hotz,

I'm coming late to the conversation, but this has developed into quite a fascinating thread. I know you have a lot to consider (and your conversation with HELCO to get current costs will probably be a major deciding factor for you) but I would think that, if you're going to rent an off-grid house anywhere, where you are located would be the perfect place for it to work.

I really look forward to hearing what you decide to do!

[hotzcatz]

Well, currently *no pun intended* we are considering connecting the new house to the electrical grid - however, only using the grid to power a few outlets in the garage for the wood shop tools. There would also be an outlet we could plug the inverter into - just a regular household outlet - so it could charge up the battery bank on cloudy days. We would still pay the minimum charge to be connected to the grid, which seems to be somewhere around $20 a month. However, on cloudy days, we wouldn't have to run the gas generator to charge up the battery system. During the winter, we run the generator sometimes as much as several hours a day, during the summer; hardly at all. We all know the price of gasoline isn't going to go down so using grid power to top off the battery bank as necessary might be less expensive than using a generator. We would basically have two systems with most of the house on the solar system and just a few outlets on Helco's system and the solar panels wouldn't be attached to Helco's system at all.

We shouldn't need any permission from Helco since the solar panels are kept separate from their system with no electricity going back to them at all. When we had extra power, we would store it in the battery bank instead of giving it to them. Also, when the grid power goes down, we'd still have power although we wouldn't have the ability to top off the battery bank and would then be 100% dependent on solar. Which is enough for about 80% of our electrical usage during the winter and 100% during the summer. With a few more panels we'd pretty much be 100% solar.

That then gives us a quandary of how to power this house when we move to the new one. We can either buy another solar system or connect this one to the grid as well. We already have a spare inverter and backup generator but would have to buy about eight panels at $600 apiece and about eight batteries at about $90 each plus some miscellaneous wires and such. So, do we spend about $6,000 to power up the rental house with a solar system or about a third of that amount to attach it to the grid? I don't know the actual attach to the grid costs at all.

If we leave the solar on the soon to be rental house, then we could just get new panels and install them on the new house. That would be much easier than shifting panels and then installing more of them. Arrgh! No wonder people just sign up for power and not think about it.

[eureka1]

I think a lot of the responders are misreading your question which has to do with renting a house to others, not "renting a house". I have no experience with off-the-grid situations, but as a landlord I have found it prudent not to expect too much from tenants. You have been so generous with your time on this forum that all I can do is wish you the best in your venture. Congrats on the new house!