Hawai'i ranks #1 for most expensive apartment rent again! (Honolulu: transplants, sales)
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"Hawai'i has the highest hourly wage needed to afford a two bedroom apartment.
That amount is $34.22 an hour.
That's based on the standard of only spending 30% of your income on housing, with the fair market price of $1,780 a month for an apartment on Oahu".
"It's a tight market because it's a confined area. And renters are stuck," said 31-year Makiki apartment renter Paul Klink.
"There's no rent control here so landlords can raise the rent as much as they want," said another Makiki apartment renter, Anton Glamb."
So again anyone wanting to move to Hawai'i. But it's simple to just say that. What solutions does one see in the issue of cost of rents vs wages? Do we in Hawai'i build more housing, build up like maybe Hong Kong? Do we encourage growth limits on the islands? Do we get creative and expand our economic based from just tourism to other industries to try to raise income levels? Any other ideals or discussion in the article?
Of course - if you continued to read the article, San Francisco blows away Hawaii/Honolulu at $44/hour.
Statewide averages are meaningless. City by city averages are much more appropriate and Honolulu isn't terribly expensive compared to other major West Coast cities.
{snip} Do we in Hawai'i build more housing, build up like maybe Hong Kong? Do we encourage growth limits on the islands? Do we get creative and expand our economic based from just tourism to other industries to try to raise income levels? Any other ideals or discussion in the article?
HBH - We?? I thought you lived on the west coast (mainland)....
Of course - if you continued to read the article, San Francisco blows away Hawaii/Honolulu at $44/hour.
Statewide averages are meaningless. City by city averages are much more appropriate and Honolulu isn't terribly expensive compared to other major West Coast cities.
Another statistic from the study that put Hawai'i on top, .the gap between the rental cost and average hourly wages.
Hawaii has the largest gap in the country with the average wage at $14.53.
But what your missing is this . Hawai'i has the highest hourly wage needed to afford a two bedroom apartment.
That amount is $34.22 an hour.
What your focused on is this.That San Francisco's price tag for rent is higher so it's more expensive . But what your ignoring is the average wage in San Francisco is $33.34 in May 2014. That is far more then the average wage in the state of Hawai'i or Honolulu. Honolulu which is 23.00 in May 2014, about 1 percent above the nationwide average of $22.71 while San Francisco is about 47 percent above the nationwide average. This is the point that I have been trying to share, this is what makes Hawai'i so expensive. Now moving on.
You support building up and more like Hong Kong to provide more housing as a solution? But even if you provide more housing how do we avoid the same old paradise tax mentality, now just on more housing? I bring this up because never in History have we had more housing then we have now on the islands or Honolulu. But it's more expensive then ever in History. Any suggestions on solutions?
Also Hawai'i has one of the highest % of the population renting in the country.
Last edited by HawaiiWarriorFan; 05-31-2016 at 01:41 PM..
Another statistic from the study that put Hawai'i on top, .the gap between the rental cost and average hourly wages.
Hawaii has the largest gap in the country with the average wage at $14.53.
But what your missing is this . Hawai'i has the highest hourly wage needed to afford a two bedroom apartment.
That amount is $34.22 an hour.
What your focused on is this.That San Francisco's price tag for rent is higher so it's more expensive . But what your ignoring is the average wage in San Francisco is $33.34 in May 2014. That is far more then the average wage in the state of Hawai'i or Honolulu. Honolulu which is 23.00 in May 2014, about 1 percent above the nationwide average of $22.71 while San Francisco is about 47 percent above the nationwide average. This is the point that I have been trying to share, this is what makes Hawai'i so expensive. Now moving on.
You support building up and more like Hong Kong to provide more housing as a solution? But even if you provide more housing how do we avoid the same old paradise tax mentality, now just on more housing? I bring this up because never in History have we had more housing then we have now on the islands or Honolulu. But it's more expensive then ever in History.
HBH, you often bring up issues and describe problems. But I don't often hear you offer any clear and concrete solutions. I sincerely would appreciate hearing your suggestions for solutions: specific, tangible steps that would have a dramatic or measurable impact.
The situation in Hawaii with respect to housing costs and wages is pretty typical of the situation in most desirable locations in the world and impacted by globalization.
I believe building out (i.e. expanding sprawl) is completely unacceptable and it won't help in the long run. It will only further destroy Oahu. Building up is better than building out. But I also feel reducing mainland & international demand would also be required. Reducing demand from those areas would help remove external factors from the local real estate economy.
Many of these things I've said before, but I'll say them again. Here are my ideas:
1. Put an end to sprawl by creating hard growth boundaries and sticking to them.
2. Reduce foreign and mainland residential real estate purchases by imposing a large capital gain tax on residential real estate sales by non-resident owners. Something like 50% or 60% tax. This will be a large disincentive for people to buy in Hawaii.
3. Create a disincentive for people to move to Hawaii by increasing the Income tax (to something high, like 30%) for all residents but then providing a "Long-Term Resident" deduction (for people who have lived on island for 5 or more years) that will bring the income tax rate back down to what it is now.
With a huge income tax on a new resident, do you think anyone will move to Hawaii ? Nope. And then as people leave, perhaps the population will stop dropping.
With a huge capital gain tax on non-resident real estate sales, do you think any non-resident is going to buy real estate in Hawaii ? Nope.
You would see real estate pricing start dropping and probably an easing of demand.
Those are pretty crazy idea's, I know. But I think they would be a start and they would have an impact. At least it starts a conversation for thinking outside the box and trying to attack the issue from the demand side. Trying to attack the issue by creating more supply will never work in the long term and will just create an ugly island.
1. Put an end to sprawl by creating hard growth boundaries and sticking to them.
2. Reduce foreign and mainland residential real estate purchases by imposing a large capital gain tax on residential real estate sales by non-resident owners. Something like 50% or 60% tax. This will be a large disincentive for people to buy in Hawaii.
3. Create a disincentive for people to move to Hawaii by increasing the Income tax (to something high, like 30%) for all residents but then providing a "Long-Term Resident" deduction (for people who have lived on island for 5 or more years) that will bring the income tax rate back down to what it is now.
With a huge income tax on a new resident, do you think anyone will move to Hawaii ? Nope. And then as people leave, perhaps the population will stop dropping.
With a huge capital gain tax on non-resident real estate sales, do you think any non-resident is going to buy real estate in Hawaii ? Nope.
You would see real estate pricing start dropping and probably an easing of demand.
I'll agree with #1 - although that makes where you can build even more expensive
For #2 - the two biggest industries in Hawaii is the military and tourism (or your phrase non-residents). Hawaii or any tourist destination isn't ever going to want to limit investment by non-residents - and a lot of those non-residents simply won't come to Hawaii anymore, think about that impact on local residents dependant on the tourism industry.
For #3 - the State of Hawaii is about to enter one of the lowest growth periods in its modern history. We already know Hawaii has a net migration loss issue - generally, more people move away from Hawaii than to Hawaii. That has been fairly historical for quite awhile. Incenting people to not move to Hawaii makes things much worse - much worse. We have a Doctor shortage - why would any skilled doctor move to Hawaii under your scenario. What would happen to businesses that rely on highly skilled labor that isn't available in Hawaii? Just give up?
For the last statement - "real estate pricing start dropping" Well, what impact will that have on local residents who are long-term homeowners? Look at any period in Hawaii where home prices fall including 2008 - it isn't a pretty picture. People forget real quick what happens when real estate falls here.
The issue is simple: a 40x20 mile island, much of which isn't habitable - doesn't have a lot of space for housing - combined with people living longer and rampant baby making here - just isn't a good combination.
HBH, you often bring up issues and describe problems. But I don't often hear you offer any clear and concrete solutions. I sincerely would appreciate hearing your suggestions for solutions: specific, tangible steps that would have a dramatic or measurable impact.
The situation in Hawaii with respect to housing costs and wages is pretty typical of the situation in most desirable locations in the world and impacted by globalization.
I believe building out (i.e. expanding sprawl) is completely unacceptable and it won't help in the long run. It will only further destroy Oahu. Building up is better than building out. But I also feel reducing mainland & international demand would also be required. Reducing demand from those areas would help remove external factors from the local real estate economy.
Many of these things I've said before, but I'll say them again. Here are my ideas:
1. Put an end to sprawl by creating hard growth boundaries and sticking to them.
2. Reduce foreign and mainland residential real estate purchases by imposing a large capital gain tax on residential real estate sales by non-resident owners. Something like 50% or 60% tax. This will be a large disincentive for people to buy in Hawaii.
3. Create a disincentive for people to move to Hawaii by increasing the Income tax (to something high, like 30%) for all residents but then providing a "Long-Term Resident" deduction (for people who have lived on island for 5 or more years) that will bring the income tax rate back down to what it is now.
With a huge income tax on a new resident, do you think anyone will move to Hawaii ? Nope. And then as people leave, perhaps the population will stop dropping.
With a huge capital gain tax on non-resident real estate sales, do you think any non-resident is going to buy real estate in Hawaii ? Nope.
You would see real estate pricing start dropping and probably an easing of demand.
Those are pretty crazy idea's, I know. But I think they would be a start and they would have an impact. At least it starts a conversation for thinking outside the box and trying to attack the issue from the demand side. Trying to attack the issue by creating more supply will never work in the long term and will just create an ugly island.
Lol yes you got ahead of me WaikikiBoy, I was waiting for more people to post. But yes I was thinking along the same lines as you on a disincentive to move to Hawai'i. Tax will work on income or buying property. Yes these are wild ideals. Again I agree supply and demand issues are all common for desirable locations. Unlike places like San Francisco or New York where housing and cost of living are high because of desirability.Hawai'i and Honolulu has a issue unlike the other locations I mentioned. It's average wages are only 1% higher then National average vs San Francisco which is 47 percent above the nationwide or New York which is more than two and a half times the national average. Arguments for this issue is the cost of doing business in Hawai'i is more expensive this wages are cut or people are willing to work for less. But ignoring that never in History has Hawai'i seen the numbers in tourist visiting or spending money, almost 35x the amount of tourists visit today then statehood. Last year 11.4 billion in visitor spending was reported by tourism but wages remained stagnant or at levels consistent to the past.
1.Possible solution? The state of Hawai'i investment in more economic based industry besides tourism if the standard industry wages for tourism type jobs are not high then fund and find another industry to go along side tourism.
2. Lower the cost of doing business with tax break incentives, since Hawai'i is one of the hardest places to do business. Repeal the 30hr a week mandatory health care act. Too many employers are going around it by not hiring part time.
3) More responsible spending on Government level in Hawai'i to reduce demand on the need to generate tax revenues on business.
4) Progressive tax rates after a set amount to companies who take money out of Hawai'i.
I'll agree with #1 - although that makes where you can build even more expensive
For #2 - the two biggest industries in Hawaii is the military and tourism (or your phrase non-residents). Hawaii or any tourist destination isn't ever going to want to limit investment by non-residents - and a lot of those non-residents simply won't come to Hawaii anymore, think about that impact on local residents dependant on the tourism industry.
For #3 - the State of Hawaii is about to enter one of the lowest growth periods in its modern history. We already know Hawaii has a net migration loss issue - generally, more people move away from Hawaii than to Hawaii. That has been fairly historical for quite awhile. Incenting people to not move to Hawaii makes things much worse - much worse. We have a Doctor shortage - why would any skilled doctor move to Hawaii under your scenario. What would happen to businesses that rely on highly skilled labor that isn't available in Hawaii? Just give up?
For the last statement - "real estate pricing start dropping" Well, what impact will that have on local residents who are long-term homeowners? Look at any period in Hawaii where home prices fall including 2008 - it isn't a pretty picture. People forget real quick what happens when real estate falls here.
The issue is simple: a 40x20 mile island, much of which isn't habitable - doesn't have a lot of space for housing - combined with people living longer and rampant baby making here - just isn't a good combination.
I disagree with #2 For #2 - the two biggest industries in Hawaii is the military and tourism (or your phrase non-residents). Hawaii or any tourist destination isn't ever going to want to limit investment by non-residents - and a lot of those non-residents simply won't come to Hawaii anymore, think about that impact on local residents dependant on the tourism industry.
I'm not nitpicking ok, But we want to encourage tourism but discourage transplants. Hawai'i will survive with less people. Just fat cats will be less fat.
3) For #3 - the State of Hawaii is about to enter one of the lowest growth periods in its modern history. We already know Hawaii has a net migration loss issue - generally, more people move away from Hawaii than to Hawaii. That has been fairly historical for quite awhile. Incenting people to not move to Hawaii makes things much worse - much worse. We have a Doctor shortage - why would any skilled doctor move to Hawaii under your scenario. What would happen to businesses that rely on highly skilled labor that isn't available in Hawaii? Just give up?
Again what inventive does a highly skilled doctor have in moving to Hawai'i under the current situation? None. The tourism economy has never been better, there is more money in the islands then never before. Further, since statehood and the change in philosophy in the islands, Hawai'i continues to see increasing amount of people born in Hawai'i moving off island, not tourists or transplants. Again I could be wrong but . Hawai'i's birth rate declined significantly between 1980 and 2011, from 18.8 births to 13.7 births per 1,000 population, a decrease of 21.9 percent.
Hawai`i vs. United States Birth Rate: In 1997, Hawai'i's birth rate, which had been higher than the national rate, converged with the U.S. birth rate at 14.3 births per 1,000 population. Overall, birth rates in both Hawai'i and the nation declined during the 1990's. In recent years the birth rate has leveled off, fluctuating between 12.7 and 14.5 births per 1,000 population, with Hawaii's rate remaining slightly above the U.S. So the rampet baby making theory doesn't explain the high population growth especially now with almost 1.4 million people on island. But I do respect your opinion
In recent years the birth rate has leveled off, fluctuating between 12.7 and 14.5 births per 1,000 population, with Hawaii's rate remaining slightly above the U.S. So the rampet baby making theory doesn't explain the high population growth especially now with almost 1.4 million people on island. But I do respect your opinion
It doesn't?
First off, looking at just a birth rate is meaningless unless we look at deaths.
Let's look at the past 2 years for Honolulu County.
2014: Births: 13,619 Deaths: 7,754
2015: Births: 13,679 Deaths: 7,878.
So, pretty consistent for the past 2 years. Let's say, 5,800 more births per year than deaths. A staggering number when you think about it - for every death, nearly 2 people are born in Honolulu County.
In 1995, the population of Honolulu County was 881,000 (by the way, less people lived in Honolulu County in 2000).
In 2015, lets go with 976,000 residents.
Lets prove the baby making theory.
Difference between 1995 population and 2015: 95,000, an increase of 4,750 per year. That number represents less than the typical year of growth of births - deaths, therefore it reinforces more people move away from Honolulu than to Honolulu by nearly 1,000 per year.
First off, looking at just a birth rate is meaningless unless we look at deaths.
Let's look at the past 2 years for Honolulu County.
2014: Births: 13,619 Deaths: 7,754
2015: Births: 13,679 Deaths: 7,878.
So, pretty consistent for the past 2 years. Let's say, 5,800 more births per year than deaths. A staggering number when you think about it - for every death, nearly 2 people are born in Honolulu County.
In 1995, the population of Honolulu County was 881,000 (by the way, less people lived in Honolulu County in 2000).
In 2015, lets go with 976,000 residents.
Lets prove the baby making theory.
Difference between 1995 population and 2015: 95,000, an increase of 4,750 per year. That number represents less than the typical year of growth of births - deaths, therefore it reinforces more people move away from Honolulu than to Honolulu by nearly 1,000 per year.
Ok let's say your logic and math is correct. I will go with it. The difference between population from between 1995 and 2015: was 95,000 an increase of 4,750 per year. That number represents less than the typical year of growth of births - deaths, etc etc. Ok so did you know on average by stats 40%.to 50% of those born in Hawai'i move from Hawaii? I bet you didn't factor that in, so if the birth rate is like two births to one death and half the births leave? Doesn't it about make it even? Let's factor that in ok. So in 1995, 885,000 people live in Honolulu country. In 2015, 976,000 people lived in Honolulu county, births 2 to 1 deaths - 50% of those born leave Honolulu that = about 95,000 people moved to Honolulu county in the last 20 years. So basicly all the growth is from people not from Hawai'i. Which is my point. Am I wrong in my logic?
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