Why Do So Many People Finally Move to Hawaii Then Move Back Shortly After???

[k-sol]

Originally Posted by Pretzel Logic

Yes, that happens. But the fact is, a great many small businesses stay in business in SPITE of themselves. These companies linger around only because people have nowhere else to shop. Almost without exception, it is these poorly-run companies that are driven out of business by Wal-Mart, etc.. If the small company provides something of value (i.e.- superior service, knowledgable employees, etc.) they will continue to thrive with or without Wal-Mart. And I've seen that happen.

The fact is, Wal-Mart generally provides much more economic good than damage to a community -- they provide jobs at better pay than most small companies, they only promote from within - so they provide a ladder for people where none existed before, and they provide the overall community with lower cost products.

Just because they sometimes put smaller companies out of business does not make them bad. They became big in the first place by being more competitive and by providing value. Well-managed, well-run companies simply do not go out of business because of Wal-Mart... but the worthless ones are forced to either shape up or go under, and that's a good thing.

When you get a chance, watch Penn and Teller's Bullsh*t episode about Wal-Mart. It covers a lot more info than I can cover in a few paragraphs.

Wow. What propaganda. Apparently someone believes everything they hear.

A flower shop, hardware store, small grocer, gun store and liquor store are all in business for years. None of them ever have a problem. Then Super Wal-Mart decides to come to this nice small quiet town. Super Wal-Mart sells food a price far lower than the little grocer can sell for, so he has to shut his doors. Super's florist gets a better deal than the local florist, so out he goes and on and on and on.

Meanwhile the town "grows" thanks to Wal-Mart until they day the pull it and move on. Now all these small businesspeople are out of business, the town has thousands of newcomers that don't respect the towns culture, and there's a large abandoned mini-mall that in a few months will be a haven for cheap nail shops, drug deals and prostitution. Thanks for nothing.

Wal-Mart hurts the economy by pushing out small business. Small business is the foundation upon which our economic system is built. Even Wal-Mart itself was a small business at one point. If I'm in the middle of Podunk, Alabama and I sell my roses for $20 a dozen and that's the best deal I can get because they are also locally grown, how can I compete with Wal-Mart who gets theirs from China and 1/8th the cost. I can't. That's one way Wal-Mart is bad for the economy.

Also they contribute greatly to the Sinofication and low quality of goods (another problem). A vacuum cleaner that goes for more money at Sears or K-Mart for $150 will be cheaper at Wal-Mart, but made with even more substandard parts. The vast majority of Wal-Mart's goods are made with substandard parts in countries where substandardness is the key -- that should make you think twice about flying any Airbus since Airbus is going to start building planes in China.

So you can sit there in Kihei and give the pro-Wal-Mart spiel until the cows come home, but when you are ready to see some real-world results, let me know. There are *plenty* of communities that have been damaged by Wal-Mart. There is a world outside of Kihei and just because you live in Kihei doesn't mean it isn't happening (myopia and shortsigtedness very common in Hawaii...). If that's the case, just do like everyone else and pretend the problem doesn't exist, put your head in the sand and vote for Mufi for gov.

[k-sol]

Originally Posted by mdand3boys

I would bet those 5 smaller stores were paying their employees minimum wage with no benefits and nearby residents were used to driving much farther to get all the items they couldn't get at those local stores.

You're assuming everyone is willing to drive further. Kinda hard to justify driving 15 miles to save $1 on eggs.... doesn't matter if you are on the island or not.

[1freespirit]

I do agree that having a large franchise such as Wal-Mart does infact hurt the small business owner and in this aspect this is terrible.

Although I was not aware that all of Wal-mart items are substandard.. If I seen a "Hoover vacuum model X123" from Sears for $150.00 and Wal-mart had the same exact model for $100.00 but it was the same model and manufacturer does that mean the Wal-mart model is not made from the same manufacturer? I guess I always thought they were the same I was not aware there was a difference. Maybe I am misunderstanding. I know they have some off brand items that I would consider substandard. Not that Wal-mart even sells the brand Hoover I was just using that as a sinero.

A super Wal-mart came to our area ( about 50 miles away) a couple years ago and yes lots of smaller businesses had to close their doors. Not a good thing - I try to get the best bargain possible no matter from what store it is, if I had more income I guess it would not matter where I shopped. But in the same aspect if I can get the same item where I don't have to drive that far I will pay the slightly higher price for the item locally and save on the cost of my gas and time. Super Wal-Marts, Costco's etc.. I go to stock up on supplies. The smaller local stores I get my everyday items I may run out of. Which I am sure may be the case for lots of people. But then I have always live in the sticks so to to stock up on suppiles" as I stated is about a 100 mile RT for me and we try to get enough to last a month or up to 3 months (sometimes longer) at a time. Now if we got all of this locally the total bill I am sure for the same amount would be about $500 or more.

Our vehicle stacked to the hilt riding on the axels.. or so it seems. We have had people take photos of our vehicle in the parking lot stuffed to the brim and said we should contact Chrysler and send them the photo as an advertisment how much you can get into a PT Cruiser!

[Bandalero]

Originally Posted by johnwwwatson

It was the small minded bitterness of locals that resisted the Superferry.

I don't mean to be argumentative here, but I'm not quite sure of this assessment regarding locals and the SuperFerry. Each and every island and its people (or their views) are obviously different (i.e., Maui vs. Kauai, etc.), but from here on Oahu, everything I saw during the whole SuperFerry debate pointed to Mainland transplants (mostly haoles) and traditional elderly (often wealthy Japanese) that provided the bulk of the resistance.

In fact, of all my local friends statewide, scattered across Oahu, Kauai, Maui and Big Isle, I don't know a SINGLE one that didn't support the SuperFerry. They wanted it for reasons that related to shopping and improved availability of perishables outer island . . . they wanted it from the standpoint of being able to visit outer island family regularly and easily . . . fishermen here on Oahu wanted it so they could put their whole ohana and pickup truck aboard to go fish for Ulua on tutu's Big Isle property somewhere, etc.

I could be wrong, but all-in-all, the vast majority of locals from Maui, Big Isle and Kauai all seemed to support it.

[hotzcatz]

Originally Posted by mdand3boys

I would bet those 5 smaller stores were paying their employees minimum wage with no benefits and nearby residents were used to driving much farther to get all the items they couldn't get at those local stores.

No, the local stores were not paying minimum wage with no benefits and the little stores were closer to where people lived. Heck, McD's was paying $10 an hour to start last time I looked.

WalMart is the one who doesn't have any full time employees with health benefits. They also don't donate to local causes. Next time you see something donated to a school, it will most likely have come from KTA or HPM, but it will not have come from WalMart. They also bring in 80% of their stuff from China and have a very limited stock of local supplied items. I've heard for every minimum wage/part time job at WalMart, they've drained 1.5 jobs out of the local economy.

I do not shop and will not shop at WalMart. They are not part of this community. Every single dollar spent at WalMart is sent immediately to their bank in the MidWest. They don't even open local bank accounts.

So, perhaps that's why some folks have had to move back to the mainland. Their jobs in our local economy were turned into minimum wage part time jobs by being undercut by WalMart.

[mdand3boys]

Hotzcats The store the other post talks about was not in Hawaii. Besides that, you are completely baseless in stating that they do not donate to local causes. I have a friend who is a Wal-Mart manager (not in Hawaii) and he is always on his staff to get him details on local causes that his store should help support. They DO have benefits, much better than the average mom and pop store could ever offer.

I guess that the various donated items, etc. that we just saw at the Panaewa Rainforest Zoo with the local Wal-Mart name on it doesn't count for donations?

[Pretzel Logic]

Originally Posted by k-sol

Wow. What propaganda. Apparently someone believes everything they hear.

You are referring to yourself with this accusation, I assume. I've actually been involved in starting companies and running marketing departments for much of my life (very successfully, I might add). I'm basing my statements on my real-life experience as a successful business and marketing man, not on something I "heard." Penn and Teller just happened to do an episode that hit the nail on the head, which is why I referred you to them.

A flower shop, hardware store, small grocer, gun store and liquor store are all in business for years. None of them ever have a problem.

The fact that they've never "had a problem" does not make them well-run companies. I stand by my statement that most companies remain in business in spite of themselves. Once again I base this on years of starting brand new small businesses and putting the older, established companies out of business. How could we do this without the purchasing power of a Wal-Mart? Because our new company did everything better than the older companies: we provided better service, we knew how to market, and we knew how to treat our employees and customers. You don't have to be Wal-Mart to put most ma and pop places out of business; you just have to be competent.

Then Super Wal-Mart decides to come to this nice small quiet town. Super Wal-Mart sells food a price far lower than the little grocer can sell for, so he has to shut his doors. Super's florist gets a better deal than the local florist, so out he goes and on and on and on.

I'm sorry, but these are not facts: these are presuppositions. You are assuming that price is the prime (and apparently only) motivator that drives customers. It is not -- in fact, far from it. Otherwise, every restaurant on the planet would be McDonald's. Apply your logic there, and you'll see the flaw. Most people are willing to pay a few dollars more if they perceive that they are getting more value for that extra money.

Meanwhile the town "grows" thanks to Wal-Mart until they day the pull it and move on. Now all these small businesspeople are out of business, the town has thousands of newcomers that don't respect the towns culture, and there's a large abandoned mini-mall that in a few months will be a haven for cheap nail shops, drug deals and prostitution. Thanks for nothing.

This is so far out in left field it's hard to respond to. Suffice it to say that the first item in your chain of events "the day they pull it and move on" is again a presupposition, without which the rest of your scenario falls apart. Wal-Mart does not go around randomly pulling stores. In fact, of the 3 major metropolitan cities I've lived in, I've never seen a single Wal-Mart close its doors. Come to think of it, I've never seen a closing in the rural areas I've lived in either. I assume it DOES happen here and there, but it's such a well-run company that it's rare for them to have a store forced into closure.

Wal-Mart hurts the economy by pushing out small business. Small business is the foundation upon which our economic system is built. Even Wal-Mart itself was a small business at one point. If I'm in the middle of Podunk, Alabama and I sell my roses for $20 a dozen and that's the best deal I can get because they are also locally grown, how can I compete with Wal-Mart who gets theirs from China and 1/8th the cost. I can't. That's one way Wal-Mart is bad for the economy.

Please check your facts before attempting to support an argument with them. Wal-Mart does NOT get their flowers from China. Even if you don't fact-check your statements, common sense alone would tell you that air-shipping flowers (flowers die quickly -- there are no vessels at sea for 6 weeks transporting fresh-cut roses) across the world would make this cost-prohibitive. U.S. Wal-Marts buy their flowers from U.S. growers.

Second, you are (falsely) assuming that price is the only aspect to a successful business. You are also assuming that Wal-Mart fills up EVERY SINGLE NITCH in the business world. Small business is not excluded from a given market simply because there's a Wal-Mart there. Surely you don't believe Wal-Mart is "all things to all people" and precludes every small business in the country. There are always needs to be filled in a market.

To address your example of a florist directly: you're right in the sense that if you start a flower shop and have nothing to offer over what Wal-Mart is offering, but you still charge more, you are going to be unsuccessful. However, if you have a unique way of designing arrangements and marketing your product, people will be willing to pay more for your product. It will say to your loved one, "Honey, I could have spent $12 bucks at Wal-Mart and gotten you a crappy cookie-cutter bouquet, but I spent $20 at K-Sol's and got you this work of art." Again, people respond to value. Do you think Four Seasons Resorts are successful because their price is so cheap?

And, quite frankly, if your hypothetical florist doesn't have anything to offer over a place like Wal-Mart or the grocery store in terms of added value, then they have no business starting a flower shop in the first place. Wal-Mart is actually easy to compete with on virtually every level except price, and any businessperson worth his or her salt realizes this and markets accordingly.

Also they contribute greatly to the Sinofication and low quality of goods (another problem). A vacuum cleaner that goes for more money at Sears or K-Mart for $150 will be cheaper at Wal-Mart, but made with even more substandard parts.

Riiight. Those substandard parts must come over on the same boat as the "fresh flowers from China." Sorry, not buying this random accusation without legitimate and reputable references. Sounds like something some anti-Wal-Mart blogger made up.

So you can sit there in Kihei and give the pro-Wal-Mart spiel until the cows come home, but when you are ready to see some real-world results, let me know. There are *plenty* of communities that have been damaged by Wal-Mart. There is a world outside of Kihei and just because you live in Kihei doesn't mean it isn't happening (myopia and shortsigtedness very common in Hawaii...). If that's the case, just do like everyone else and pretend the problem doesn't exist, put your head in the sand and vote for Mufi for gov.

LMAO. I just got here. I've been in Kihei for less than 2 months. Constantly making assumptions based on limited knowledge (as you do throughout this post) is a character flaw (one that won't serve you well in life. Even beyond our discussion, it's a trait you should seriously challenge.). For your info: I've lived in the the urban (and rural) Eastern US, the desert Southwest, and the Pacific Northwest over the course of my life. And I think my "real-world" experience, based on the fact that I've managed several successful small businesses and have been out there in the "real world" actually competing against the big boys like Wal-Mart, is a bit more substantial than yours.

(myopia and shortsigtedness very common in Hawaii...)

Psychologists call this "projection", defined as a person ascribing their own personal attributes to others.

[mdand3boys]

Every new Wal-Mart I have ever seen built has very rapidly had a number of other stores of all types open up right around it. Sure doesn't seem like they forced anyone out?

[7th generation]

This thread seems to have run it's course.
from Hawaii back to the mainland>Wallyworld!