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Why are people opposed to a Universal Healthcare System?
I think it's fear. They assume that it won't work and they will end up in a worse situation. They have also been brainwashed by the right wind media and they have no experience of how the wold works because they have never traveled outside the USA.
I have traveled the world. When I first experienced affordable medical care as a tourist in both Australia and New Zealand, it made me want to move there.
Eventually, the USA will have Medicare for all. But first, the alternative systems will have to fail badly.
If you read this string, you'll discover another reason we can't seem to implement Universal Healthcare. The working class has a biting resentment of the poor.
I remember discovering this in a summer job moving furniture in 1966. I was basically working as a laborer loading and unloading moving trucks for $1.75 per hour in Phoenix in the summertime. I was on my way to college and those guys hated me too. They thought I was a coward for pursuing an engineering degree instead of enlisting in the Marines and killing the gooks in Viet-Nam as they had done. I thought they were just jealous. My laborer job was temporary, theirs was not.
What really shocked me was their racist attitudes. They casually used the N word to describe the lowlife that they hated. They would have refused to work with a black person. Having grown up in an upper middle class neighborhood, I had never encountered that attitude before.
I guess it survives. Read the NYT article above.
I still think that our healthcare system must almost collapse before we join the rest of the developed world and implement Universal Healthcare.
Based on some of the comments, it would appear that the main argument against universal health care is that some people don't want others who, in their opinion, are undeserving to get something for free.
The problem, of course, is that the rest of us who may be 'deserving' are paying a small fortune for healthcare that should be a lot cheaper (if other developed countries are anything to go by) because we refuse to change the system so that we can continue to stick it to the 'undeserving'.
Of course it does. Did you miss the comment in an earlier post about people wanting healthcare, but not wanting to pay for it? That's a dig at those who can't afford it by someone who easily can afford it.
If you read this string, you'll discover another reason we can't seem to implement Universal Healthcare. The working class has a biting resentment of the poor.
I remember discovering this in a summer job moving furniture in 1966. I was basically working as a laborer loading and unloading moving trucks for $1.75 per hour in Phoenix in the summertime. I was on my way to college and those guys hated me too. They thought I was a coward for pursuing an engineering degree instead of enlisting in the Marines and killing the gooks in Viet-Nam as they had done. I thought they were just jealous. My laborer job was temporary, theirs was not.
What really shocked me was their racist attitudes. They casually used the N word to describe the lowlife that they hated. They would have refused to work with a black person. Having grown up in an upper middle class neighborhood, I had never encountered that attitude before.
I guess it survives. Read the NYT article above.
I still think that our healthcare system must almost collapse before we join the rest of the developed world and implement Universal Healthcare.
I've pretty much observed the same thing. I've been fortunate in one respect. I've lived in a state that is primarily full of white Caucasian people and so race hasn't been a topic that seems to consume many of my friends and neighbors. Reading posts on CDF has been an education for me in some respects. I am shocked at how much veiled and unveiled racism I routinely see on these forums. I believe there are some people who are truly more interested in seeing that some groups do without adequate health care than seeing that the health care problem is solved.
Other attitudes shock me as well. Some attitudes are not racial based, but are just as despicable. I'm convinced there is a large group, though fortunately not a majority, that doesn't care about people unlucky enough to have chronic diseases or preexisting medical conditions that require considerable medical attention. These people can die for all they care. Just don't interfere with their "right" to accumulate millions of dollars. These people don't really live in a country or a society. They are just individuals trying to take as much as they can as fast as they can. They think the laws and our system ought to support their sociopathic view of life as well.
Other countries succeeded in getting some version of universal healthcare because, frankly, most of their population wasn't so prejudiced, insular, and sociopathic as many people in modern America are. All these people get a vote and that vote is equal to my vote and to your vote.
Finally, there are very legitimate questions about the cost of universal health care and how that cost should be paid. America has another dilemma which other countries do not have. Because we are considered the "leader of the free world", we have taken on a very high burden when it comes to defense and military spending. Other countries spend far less a percentage of their GDP on defense than America does. This spending limits our ability to adequately pay for something like universal health care. Without such high defense spending, I believe universal health care would be a far easier sell than it is.
I'm in my late fifties and I am pessimistic I will ever see real universal health care in my lifetime. Maybe, my kids will see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001
Based on some of the comments, it would appear that the main argument against universal health care is that some people don't want others who, in their opinion, are undeserving to get something for free.
The problem, of course, is that the rest of us who may be 'deserving' are paying a small fortune for healthcare that should be a lot cheaper (if other developed countries are anything to go by) because we refuse to change the system so that we can continue to stick it to the 'undeserving'.
There is an economic theory that capitalism succeeds among other reasons through a strategy of "divide and conquer". I should point that I am, at least for the most part, a capitalist. I have made my living running my own law practice and done reasonably well at it. I hate taxes and regulation as much as anyone does. However, the longer I live, the more I see this "divide and conquer" strategy. The rich look down on the middle class. The middle class looks down on the poor and is always making pronouncements that if "they would just work a little harder" they could be middle class too. Ultimately, this hierarchy and its preservation are important. If the middle class didn't have the poor to blame for society's problems, they might start to blame the rich. The poor are so far down the ladder, they can't do anything to alter society's structure anyway.
However, ultimately change does not occur because too many people are deceived and fail to see the real problem.
Finally, there are very legitimate questions about the cost of universal health care and how that cost should be paid. America has another dilemma which other countries do not have. Because we are considered the "leader of the free world", we have taken on a very high burden when it comes to defense and military spending. Other countries spend far less a percentage of their GDP on defense than America does. This spending limits our ability to adequately pay for something like universal health care. Without such high defense spending, I believe universal health care would be a far easier sell than it is.
The U.S. spends about 18% of their GDP for health care. Most European countries with a universal health care system spend "just" about 11-12% of their GDP.
The difference is even more striking considering that the on average older population in most European countries need more medical treatments per capita.
In absolute terms just the public spendings per capita in the U.S. are higher than the overall spendings on health care per capita in most European countries.
The U.S. health care system doesn't need more money. It probably needs a complete overhaul to make it more efficient.
Interesting comment. When Canadians come onto this forum you hear a very different perspective on their system. The Brits are forever complaining about the NHS but none of them want to move to a private system. Brits want the NHS to be better but they don't want to get rid of it.
A different perspective because we know the truth. The big lie that Canadians are flocking to the US for care is not born out by statistics. Approximately 52,000 Canadians per year get care in the US. This includes tourists who get ill while there, snowbirds, and people that have been sent by the province to a US hospital. The latter is usually because the US hospital is closer to that patient than a Canadian. Think small remote towns in Canada near larger centres in the US.
Still, 52,000 people out of 37 million, is NOTHING. Why would a Canadian choose to go to the US for care and spend possible hundreds of thousands of dollars ( you can't buy health insurance to cover that cost, and travel/tourist health insurance would smell a rat if you tried ) when they can get the same operation at home at no extra cost?
Once again, there is NO waiting for urgent care. Wait times are for some elective surges such as hip and knee replacements.
The other misunderstanding that seems to be common on this board, is that we don't get to choose our doctors etc. Total fabrication.
From my own and my wife's experience in the US and abroad: US hospitals are like hotels.
They have things like wall-to-wall marble in the foyer that has a center piece fountain, and the patients are out of sight, holed-up inside 'private rooms'.
Sure private rooms are nice for pallative care, but when recovering from surgery they are a waste of money.
Each room has to have separate plumbing, gas lines, machines etc. The cost of the duplication of equipment must be massive.
Additionally, as a patient you get basically shut inside there and are out-of-sight and out-of-mind.
We basically had to ring the bell for the nurse to remind them that pain relief is due every 4 hours.
It's a long time to go without anybody ducking in to see if all is ok.
Good thing nobody slipped on the way into the bathroom and cracked their head against something as the nurses just won't be noticing for the next 3 or 4 hours.
That stuff just doesn't happen on a public ward where there are any number of nurses on foot every moment. And the dispensing nurse turns up on the dot and visits each bed like clockwork.
Also there's a health benefit of social interaction in those public wards which is lost when caged inside those nice private prison cells.
From my own and my wife's experience in the US and abroad: US hospitals are like hotels.
They have things like wall-to-wall marble in the foyer that has a center piece fountain, and the patients are out of sight, holed-up inside 'private rooms'.
Sure private rooms are nice for pallative care, but when recovering from surgery they are a waste of money.
Each room has to have separate plumbing, gas lines, machines etc. The cost of the duplication of equipment must be massive.
Additionally, as a patient you get basically shut inside there and are out-of-sight and out-of-mind.
We basically had to ring the bell for the nurse to remind them that pain relief is due every 4 hours.
It's a long time to go without anybody ducking in to see if all is ok.
Good thing nobody slipped on the way into the bathroom and cracked their head against something as the nurses just won't be noticing for the next 3 or 4 hours.
That stuff just doesn't happen on a public ward where there are any number of nurses on foot every moment. And the dispensing nurse turns up on the dot and visits each bed like clockwork.
Also there's a health benefit of social interaction in those public wards which is lost when caged inside those nice private prison cells.
I believe there is a tendency that some believe that Universal Healthcare means Soviet style bunkers for hospitals.
Where I live it's really not the case. The newer the facility though, the more pleasing I find. Vancouver General Hospital has several pavilions. The newer ones look like this.
The older hospitals are more basic. Especially St Paul's Hospital in downtown Vancouver. The buildings later addition was in the late '70's, which you can see behind the main building which was built in the 1890's and onwards. It's being moved to a new site and will go from this
To this
Private rooms are available for an extra cost to the patient, which may be covered by supplemental insurance that they get either through work, or on their own.
Private rooms don't really offer luxury as far as I am aware...just privacy.
I believe there is a tendency that some believe that Universal Healthcare means Soviet style bunkers for hospitals.
Where I live it's really not the case. The newer the facility though, the more pleasing I find. Vancouver General Hospital has several pavilions. The newer ones look like this.
The older hospitals are more basic. Especially St Paul's Hospital in downtown Vancouver. The buildings later addition was in the late '70's, which you can see behind the main building which was built in the 1890's and onwards. It's being moved to a new site and will go from this
Private rooms are available for an extra cost to the patient, which may be covered by supplemental insurance that they get either through work, or on their own.
Private rooms don't really offer luxury as far as I am aware...just privacy.
When my mother was in hospital towards the end of her life - in the UK - she was in a general hospital which was built in the 1970s. Even so, she had a room to herself, excellent care and commented on how good the food was.
Some of the rooms did have up to four beds, however.
From my point of view, there was virtually no administration, no bills, no deductible, no co-pays, etc.. All the hospital needed from me was a copy of the Power of Attorney which my mother had executed in my favor some years previously, and whether we wanted a DNR.
Her room was every bit as good as the hospital room my wife occupied at Honor Health in Phoenix just a few weeks ago.
My SO is British and her mother used to travel to see her several times a year. She has to take out 3rd party health insurance for travel to the U.S. She can (and does) travel to ANY other country on the planet at no additional cost, but travel to the U.S. requires an additional expense which amounts to about $500 USD, for a two week visit. At age 80 it doesn't matter what you are willing to pay, the UK will not insure you for travel to the U.S. if you have a major health indictment like a past heart attack or chronic ailment. 'M' has had a heart attack and also has a pacemaker. Not insurable by NHS for travel to the U.S., anywhere else in the world, yes, but not America. Am I getting through to people? Can you say Outlier, boys and girls?
For the last two years since turning 80, her mother has had to take out Lloyd's of London travel health insurance equivalent to $2000 USD, for a two week visit. This is in addition to airfare. Needless to say, this is probably the last year she will do this. She isn't rich. She has a high school education. But she owns her own home (paid off in 15 years) and vacations in Spain, South of France, Blackpool, Turkey, etc. but she does like to see her daughter. My SO is far better educated, but we just about make ends meet.
Americans do not even realize how well other citizens of First World Countries around the world can live on working class salaries! Too bad, because if they did... I don't think the country would survive the Revolution that would result. Obamagone is the new rallying cry of the "lets resume the race to the bottom" Right Wing. What race... we already won that one. The race now is to see how much worse than emerging economies America can do. Hospital acquired infections are the fifth leading cause of death in America. Do you imagine it is worse than that in India? You'd be wrong. It isn't. Hospital acquired infections are not a significant health impact in India. Or China. Or Cuba!
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