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Much of the brutlaity of the siociet where not the first wave of troops into germna towens. In afct you can read accout bu germans that they at frst toguht there woud be such problems. But mnay wree even wrned that the second wve madeup of pretty poorly trined trops were a different story. Often they and their families were the victims of much of the german treatment earlier.Its easy to also read american and british war prisoners accoutn s of what they saw as the differnce in tatnebt of russina and other war prisoners. But then one oy has to loo at the British view of bombing that Harris had because of geramn bombing to nderstand we were not there and its hard to understand just now much the germans were hated.Certainly if you ever talked to anyone that entered the concentration cmaps they will tell you they were not even prepared for that by what they had seen in combat.Not saying Stalin was any better but that does excuse the germans and in some ways I don't expect they expect much better really.
Interesting how the discussion of Soviet casualities into denying the Holocaust; it is pathelogical. Face it, the revisionist theory has been debunked. In fact, recent studies coming out of Germany show how it was enforced on a local level in a more organized way than ever before.
Irving, Cole, Faurisson and on and on, have been discredited; their ideas could not stand the light of day and could not stand up to the facts.
Look, if you want to be honest, just say it was OK to kill Jews, Slavs, gays, political dissenters, gypsies, the mentally ill and on and on. There is no need to waste anyone's time trying to rewrite what happened.
"The things I saw beggar description...the visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations to propaganda." Ohrdruf April 15, 1945, Dwight Eisenhower. Frankly, I am more inclinded to believe Eisenhower and other Americans on what they saw, then rely on known Nazi apologists.
First, the holocaust came into the discussion because someone posted to the affect that in my studying WW2 I didn't seem to have come across the holocaust. As I stated the holocaust has been pushed in my face repeatedly over the years(as it has to everyone else). Second, its strange that the exterminationists refuse to have a national debate with the revisionists. Their reason is because it would legitimize the revisionts arguments and bring them into the intellectuall circles for further debate. Thats all BS. The reason the exterminationists won't debate the revisionists is because they would lose the debate. The revisionists now have the upper hand in the argument and the burden of proof is with the exterminationists. But they can't prove what they claimed happened and the revisionists have plenty of proof that there was no planned extermination of anyone in any of the camps and there was no gas used to kill anyone.
Years ago the exterminationists claimed that the Nazis used the skin of jews to make lamp shades and that they made jews into soap. There are thousands of bars of soap from those camps and tests have proved that there was no human DNA in the make up of the soap. So the exterminationists don't use those arguments anymore. But people actually believed those lies for many years.
There are many reasons why the holocaust didn't happen and here are a few of them:
1-The post WW2 books written by the wartime leaders Churchill, Eisenhower, and DeGaule never mentioned any gas being used or any planned, systematic extermination of anyone.
2-In Eli Weisel's book titled 'Night' he doesn't mention gas being used and when the choice came that he would retreat with the Germans or stay and be under the Soviet umbrella he chose to retreat with the Germans. If the Germans would have killed many jews why would he have retreated with the Germans?
3-if there would have been millions of people murdered then there would have been tons of human remains buried somewhere and it would be way too much to hide for very long. No tons of human remains were ever found. And if they would have been cremated then there would have been tons of ashes and no ashes were ever found.
4-Auswitcz was a place where synthentic rubber was being produced and U.S. intelligence was focused on Auswitcz for that reason. No U.S. intelligence reports ever gave any indication of gassing or mass extermination.
5-Jews took a census of their people before WW2 and after and in order for there to have been 6 million people killed each and every jewish female on this planet would have to given birth to something like 13 children and that never happened.
those are just a sampling of a few reasons but there are many technical reasons like samples of gas and the fact that the red cross inspected Auschwitz many times and Auschwitz passed the inspection every time.
Some people think that the revisionists are a bunch of looneys that believe in UFO's and other weird stuff but most of the revisionits are intelligent people, many are PHD's, some are scientists, etc.
As I stated the holocaust has been pushed in my face repeatedly over the years
Poor boy.
Quote:
Second, its strange that the exterminationists refuse to have a national debate with the revisionists.
There have been hundreds of "national debates" in fact there have been thousands if you include the international community on the issue of the Holocaust, considering the number of interviews, books, periodicals and broadcasts representing a wide spectrum of views. As for losing debate, a lot of delusional thinking there my... never mind.
Quote:
There are many reasons why the holocaust didn't happen and here are a few of them:
Absurd in light of the documents, and trial testimonies of those directly involved in perpetuating the Holocaust. Sorry.
Amazing that the Night should be used by someone trying to deny the holocaust. Weisel describes the rounding up of Jews, the transfer on cattle cars, people being forced to dig their own graves and then being shot, babies being used as target practice, and that is just the beginning. Death marches with Germans were not voluntary as the Soviet forces approached. Rather the Germans knew it was the end and to the bitter end they were intent on continuing the extermination and the cover up.
"Pitch darkness. Every now and then, an explosion in the night. They had orders to fire on any who could not keep up. Their fingers on the triggers, they did not deprive themselves of this pleasure. If one of us had stopped for a second, a sharp shot finished off another..." Weisel - doesn't sound like a choice to me.
There was no Jewish census prior to the War. There was not and is not any authority to carry out such a census. Who would have taken it with Jews spread among all of Europe? Do you think the Soviets would have let there be participation? How about the Poles or the neo facists governments in eastern Europe? Get real and stop making excuses.
"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People..." Himmler 10/4/43
Soviet casualty were high; they knew the enemy they were facing.
Last edited by newhandle; 01-22-2011 at 09:25 PM..
Amazing that the Night should be used by someone trying to deny the holocaust. Weisel describes the rounding up of Jews, the transfer on cattle cars, people being forced to dig their own graves and then being shot, babies being used as target practice, and that is just the beginning. Death marches with Germans were not voluntary as the Soviet forces approached. Rather the Germans knew it was the end and to the bitter end they were intent on continuing the extermination and the cover up.
"Pitch darkness. Every now and then, an explosion in the night. They had orders to fire on any who could not keep up. Their fingers on the triggers, they did not deprive themselves of this pleasure. If one of us had stopped for a second, a sharp shot finished off another..." Weisel - doesn't sound like a choice to me.
There was no Jewish census prior to the War. There was not and is not any authority to carry out such a census. Who would have taken it with Jews spread among all of Europe? Do you think the Soviets would have let there be participation? How about the Poles or the neo facists governments in eastern Europe? Get real and stop making excuses.
"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People..." Himmler 10/4/43
Soviet casualty were high; they knew the enemy they were facing.
Wiesel is a known liar and even BBC came out with an article exposing his lies. And there are many other sources that claim Wiesel is a fraud.
Also, that statement that you claim Himmler made--give me a link because I don't believe that he said that.
Wiesel is a known liar and even BBC came out with an article exposing his lies. And there are many other sources that claim Wiesel is a fraud.
Also, that statement that you claim Himmler made--give me a link because I don't believe that he said that.
Himmlers speechs are public record. I suggest a little reserach and read the source documents. I'll give you a hint. This speech was delivered only days after a memo to him from Pohl on 9/30/1943. His reply to Pohl was on 10/8/1943. In case the dates are confusing, 10/4/1943 came between these two dates. You can go deeper and not only look at the speeches but the memos if you take the energy.
As for Weisel, the holocaust denier quoted Weisel. He misquoted and misrepresented it. And Eisenhower too in his quote when he saw the camps is lying? Give me a break.
Again, I return to the theme of the tread. Soviet casualites were high, a true human tragedy.
Last edited by newhandle; 01-24-2011 at 07:41 PM..
I didn't read the whole thread, but just as an fyi, Poland suffered the worst mortality rate of any country in WW2. The total mortality rate , including military and civilian deaths, amounted to about 19% of its pre war population. The next were roughly 10% for Germany and Yugoslavia, 8% for Hungary, and 6% for Romania.
Soviet figures range widely, they have been estimated anywhere from 20-45 million. Given the opaque nature of the Soviet government, and the fact that many of them died as a result of Stalin's policies, I doubt we'll ever know the real number.
I'm sorry I can't link my sources, they come from a book I have: The War of the World, Twentieth Century Conflict and the Descent of the West , by Niall Ferguson. It's certainly not uplifting reading, but it was shockingly informative.
There have been hundreds of "national debates" in fact there have been thousands if you include the international community on the issue of the Holocaust, considering the number of interviews, books, periodicals and broadcasts representing a wide spectrum of views. As for losing debate, a lot of delusional thinking there my... never mind.
Absurd in light of the documents, and trial testimonies of those directly involved in perpetuating the Holocaust. Sorry.
Me, poor boy? I'm not the only one. The whole world has had the holocaust shuved down their throats. Incidentally, there are laws in some countries if a person so much as questions the truth of the holocaust they are thrown in prison. Sounds like someone is afraid of what those deniers might reveal.
As far as national debates, how did I miss all those debates. Were they on NBC, ABC, or CBS national television? No they weren't on any of those broadcasting companies because if they were the debates would have been national and thats the very thing that the exterminationists want to avoid. What you are talking about is a few local debates, maybe on college campuses or somewhere but there hasn't been any national debates.
No one believes the testimonys of the people right after WW2 because anyone in the know realizes that a lot of those testimonies were forced when people were in prison. As far as the testimonies of people that werre in those camps you never here of the ones that are holocaust revisionists and there are plenty of them like Dr. Faurisson who was an inmate in Auschwitz. Its like David Irving says why do they only interview a few select people who were in Auschwitz when there were thousands of people who survived Auschwitz? Lets hear what they all have to say! But they will never allow that to happen because of fear that the truth would come out.
Assuming that the entire Holocaust (or at least the extermination part of it) were fabricated it begs the question why? What purpose is served by spinning such a fantastic tail and having it rammed down peoples throats going so far as to enlist countless thousands of eyewitnesses into the conspiracy?
I personally don't doubt for a moment that it happened, but I'm intrigued as to why a denier or revisionist thinks it didn't.
The truth has come out and Irving and Faurisson have been revealed as frauds. The body of evidence is there if one takes to time to either go to primary or secondary sources.
"To paint me as an unfeeling ogre who laughs in court at the atrocities is stupid." Goering 5/24/1946
"When in the summer of 1941 he (Hitler) gave me the order to prepare installations at Auschwitz where mass exterminations could take place, and personally to carry out these exterminations, I did not have the slightest idea of their scale or consequences. It was certainly an extraordinary and monstrous order. Nevertheless the reasons behind the extermination programme seemed to me right. I did not reflect on it at the time: I had been given an order, and I had to carry it out. Whether this mass extermination of the Jews was necessary or not was something on which I could not allow myself to form an opinion, for I lacked the necessary breadth of view." autobiography Hess
"Politicians brought the Nazis to power and started the war. They are the ones who brought about these disgusting crimes, and now we have to sit there in the dock with them and share the blame!" Doenitz 5/27/46
"It is just incomprehensible how those things came about..." 12/16/1945 Hess.
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