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But it's not that the Indians didn't believe in owning land. It's that the Indians had no concept of owning land.
Indians had no concept of PERSONAL (aka individual) land ownership -- an important distinction. Anyone who doesn't think NDNs had a concept of collective ("tribal") land ownership simply hasn't been paying attention.
This pretty well negates most of what you wrote. However, you concluded with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307
If Americans had been the villainous scoundrels you have learned them to be, then Choctaw Nation would not exist at all today. But it does. In two parts.
B-r-r-r-r-r-t! Wrong, but thank you for playing!
We exist today, not in two parts, but seven. In most cases this is not because of White America, but in spite of it. There are the Mississippi Band and the Oklahoma Band, of which you are probably aware. There are also the MOWA Band (south Alabama), the Okla Chahta Band (California), and three small bands in Louisiana.
With all due respect, do not lecture me on the history of my own people. If you do, and again with all due respect, I shall simply hand you your own backside on a platter. Please note that I will do it with commonly-accepted historical references that were researched and written by Whites.
Last edited by Nighteyes; 03-02-2011 at 03:40 PM..
"ART. XIV. Each Choctaw head of a family being desirous to remain and become a citizen of the States, shall be permitted to do so, by signifying his intention to the Agent within six months from the ratification of this Treaty, and he or she shall thereupon be entitled to a reservation of one section of six hundred and forty acres of land, to be bounded by sectional lines of survey; in like manner shall be entitled to one half that quantity for each unmarried child which is living with him over ten years of age; and a quarter section to such child as may be under 10 years of age, to adjoin the location of the parent. If they reside upon said lands intending to become citizens of the States for five years after the ratification of this Treaty, in that case a grant in fee simple shall issue; said reservation shall include the present improvement of the head of the family, or a portion of it. Persons who claim under this article shall not lose the privilege of a Choctaw citizen, but if they ever remove are not to be entitled to any portion of the Choctaw annuity."[5]
As I said, there was a choice given. Most people are not aware of this fact, and it is important. It happened. It's part of the equation.
OK. How about the part of your post where you said:
Quote:
My ancestors stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Jackson against the British. This included a major role in his defeat of the British in several battles, not the least of which was the Battle of New Orleans.
That is just absolutely false. There were "a few" Indians, but most had left by that time, and I referenced the text where this was found. But we thank you deeply for your help in clearing the Creeks out with us. (nasty sort, those Creeks of 1830)
I serve you back your platter, after having placed my backside back where it belongs. Thank you for returning it. (How did he get it?)
Andrew Jackson served as President from 1829 until 1837. The Removal began in 1831, only two years into his term. In fact, the first Nation to be Removed to Oklahoma, in 1831, was the Choctaw (my ancestors).
The path of their Removal to Oklahoma was the very same path/trail that later became known as The Trail of Tears. BTW, the "Tears" in the name were not those of the Indians, but those of the Whites who observed the hardship and suffering the Indians stoically endured along the way.
If you have ANY difficulty with this, simply consult the book titled Indian Removal by the (White) historian Grant Foresman. It was published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1932, and has been periodically updated.
So, with all due respect, you have been significantly misinformed.
You will continue to be wrong about almost evrything, as long as you use John Wayne as your historical authority.
As the May 23, 1838, deadline for voluntary removal approached, President Van Buren assigned General Winfield Scott to head the forcible removal operation. He arrived at New Echota on May 17, 1838, in command of U.S. Army and state militia totalling about 7,000 soldiers. They began rounding up Cherokees in Georgia on May 26, 1838. ---Wikipedia
That first forced removal came 14 months after the end of Jackson's presidential term.
From the Treaty.
As I said, there was a choice given. Most people are not aware of this fact, and it is important. It happened. It's part of the equation.
This proves that you do not know what happened to those who elected to remain behind in Mississippi. They were my direct ancestors, by the way. As an examination of Mississippi history will tell you, they were quickly cheated of their land and driven "underground" to protect themselves and their families. This explains the major cultural/interpersonal differences that exist between the modern-day Oklahoma Choctaw and the Mississippi Choctaw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307
That is just absolutely false. There were "a few" Indians, but most had left by that time, and I referenced the text where this was found. But we thank you deeply for your help in clearing the Creeks out with us. (nasty sort, those Creeks of 1830)
You just undercut your own post. The Choctaw REMOVAL began in 1831. All of the Choctaw/Jackson campaigns against the Creek (Muscogee) were concluded BEFORE Jackson became President in 1829.
I again present your backside on a silver platter...
You will continue to be wrong about almost evrything, as long as you use John Wayne as your historical authority.
As the May 23, 1838, deadline for voluntary removal approached, President Van Buren assigned General Winfield Scott to head the forcible removal operation. He arrived at New Echota on May 17, 1838, in command of U.S. Army and state militia totalling about 7,000 soldiers. They began rounding up Cherokees in Georgia on May 26, 1838. ---Wikipedia
That first forced removal came 14 months after the end of Jackson's presidential term.
WRONG AGAIN As Nighteyes has pointed out he IS Choctaw and their removal started in 1831. The removal you are refering to in 1838 at New Echota was the Cherokee removal
Some of these posts truly amaze me and not in a good way. Your "manifest destiny" undershirt is showing.
We remain despite the genocide perpetrated upon us as a race that took place in many forms and continues today.
I just wonder how any of you would feel if the government showed up at your doorstep and told you, you must move to a distant land because the land you and your ancestors have lived on is not yours - get out NOW pack up and get out.
I still think we should have thown you back into the sea if you refused to learn our language and customs and assimilate in to OUR culture.
As Ecovlke so eloquently put it:
Quote:
We Creeks hate that man like the Jewish hate Hitler. He was just as bad as Hitler, and I certainly would not boost this heinous man in any way, shape or form
You will continue to be wrong about almost evrything, as long as you use John Wayne as your historical authority.
I did not then, nor do I now, use John Wayne as my historical authority. He was an ACTOR, for goodness' sake! And unless you're far less intelligent than I thought, you know that I didn't cite him as a historical reference. Even a cursory examination of my posts will show that I cited credible WHITE historical researchers.
C'mon, jtur88! With all due respect, show us that your teachers actually taught you how to read, and consider, an entire statement! So far, all you have shown is the deplorable tendency to 'lazy-thinking'.
Last edited by Nighteyes; 03-02-2011 at 05:52 PM..
Are you saying that if I have a different belief about your "possessions", and I have the firepower to take them away from you, I have a natural and rightful entitlement to them?
Methinks you want to have it both ways . . .
Your entitlement is not dependent on your belief in it. Does that not include your God-given entitlement to the land you live on, even if you have not codified that ownership?
I just wonder how any of you would feel if the government showed up at your doorstep and told you, you must move to a distant land because the land you and your ancestors have lived on is not yours
Well, if it was for a really useful new freeway overpass....
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(How did he get it?
)
As Nighteyes has pointed out he IS Choctaw and their removal started in 1831. The removal you are refering to in 1838 at New Echota was the Cherokee removal
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