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The Israeli explanation is that they mistook it for an obsolete Egyptian horse transport (what dire threats they anticipated from it, one is unsure). Given that my understanding is the Israelis had just ordered the ship out of the war zone, one wonders why they would order the United States to remove an Egyptian horse transport from the war zone. The Israelis then explained that due to the wind, they couldn't see the US flag flying aboard. This despite strafing it, rocketing it, torpedoing it, etc, in some cases at fairly close range. Why didn't the Egyptian horse transport have an Egyptian flag, hm?
To believe all these things simultaneously, you have to be pretty credulous. My belief is that the Liberty, which was intercepting the combined signal output of the entire war, had picked up stuff the Israelis didn't want us to act on, and that we started acting on it (perhaps their plans to sucker Jordan into the war and capture the West Bank). Only then did they evidently decide, "Well, we didn't think you'd use it against us. If that's the case, get it out of here, or it gets hurt."
The biggest Israeli apologist on the issue is some retired judge from Florida, whose obvious agenda was to dismiss anyone blaming the Israelis for doing it deliberately. His whole tone is dismissive. Plus, he was a judge, so his credibility is more suspect in my eyes than the average Joe or Jane. The thing that muddies the waters is the whole tendency for pro-Israel persons to fling around 'anti-Semitic' at anyone critical of Israel. Putting aside the fact that Arabs happen to be Semites as well, one can perfectly well be critical of something Israel does, and that doesn't make one anti-Jewish by a long shot--any more than criticizing Spanish actions makes one necessarily anti-Catholic.
I served on a sister ship to the Liberty, U.S.S. Belmont, and knew some of the Lib's crew. On happenstance, one of the crew was discharged the same day I was in 1969, and we talked about the incident.
U.S.S. Liberty AGTR5, was part of a very small fleet (5 ships) that were all highly capable intelligence gathering vessels. Intercepting all the transmissions, tactical and strategic, is highly unlikely, as there were just too many of them, and the ship only had about 100 crewmen at most who worked in this job. The total crew was about 210 or so, and the other half held all the traditional jobs that keep a ship operating.
The TR class were bigger ships than the Pueblo's class, which were much smaller and designed to resemble fishing trawlers. I know nothing about the Pueblo class ships, except that their mission was much different. The TRs were independent steamers- we never sailed in a group, and all of them went out into the ends of the earth- it was common for the ships to be the only American vessels in the seas they were stationed.
Nontheless, while I believe that the ship was deliberately attacked by the Israelis, I'm not convinced the orders came from the top level of command. I think it's much more likely that a junior commander at some level made the decision, and in the heat of a fast-moving war, it happened before the upper-level commanders even knew of it.
Remember that this happened at the height of the Viet Nam war. The Pentagon had bigger fish to fry, and they didn't want more public arousal. Neither did the President and Congress, and neither did the Israelis. It came and went in the wink of an eye.
The Israeli excuse was weak. I saw photos of the Egyptian ship; it's hull was painted black with a white stripe running along, just below the deck line. The Liberty was painted regulation Navy grey. The crew rang up the holiday ensign- a flag 4 times larger than the flag normally flown at sea- in the early stages of the attack.
The Israeli fighters flew at least 2 passovers before commencing the attack, and during the attack, the aircraft came in so closely crew could read the squadron numbers on them. Missing that huge flag was impossible.
The Liberty was very lightly armed. The total armament of the ship consisted of 2 .50 caliber machine guns in tubs, mounted on either side of the bridge. She, and all like her, depended on the sovereignity of the sea as her protection. The Liberty did not fire on either the attacking fighters or the torpedo boats that showed up later. The .50 caliber machine guns were mounted for old floating mine protection and for protection from small boats. By the time the Israeli boats showed up, both tubs were out of action. The machine guns probably couldn't elevate enough to fire at the aircraft even if they had been able to get a shot off.
The ship was completely caught by surprise- General Quarters wasn't called until the first attack had commenced. It was on a Sunday afternoon, a relaxed time, and many of the officers who weren't on duty were sunbathing on the after deck house, a popular diversion for officers and crew. If the Liberty had gotten off the first shots, none of these men would have been killed on the after deckhouse. Many of the crew were killed as they rushed in the passageways to their General Quarters stations. None were wearing life jackets or other General Quarters gear until after the first attack.
I have to make a personal note here- because we always sailed alone, these ships had extraordinarily tight crews. We had a lot of General Quarters drills, because we had to be prepared for encounters with floating hulks, offshore small fishing fleets, and all kinds of odd events that happen at sea. Belmont was once in the epicenter of an earthquake. Literally, we knew everyone, and everything about everyone on the ship. This closeness was a large part of why the Liberty didn't sink.
If the Captain of the Liberty had sensed the attack, the Lib would have been much more ready for it, and the crew would have been fully on station and prepared.
While I can only speculate, for certain the Liberty had ship to air voice communication ability, and must have had translators who could have spoken to the pilots. Translators were an integral part of the intelligence crew. There were other frantic methods of communication employed- signal lights were used, and signal flags may have been rung up.
One thing that needs to be remembered is the heroism of the Captain and crew. The Captain was wounded badly in the leg when a missile or large cannon round tore through the bridge, killing most of the men on the bridge, but remained at his station for almost 24 hours. He won the Medal of Honor for his action. Other members of the crew, officers and enlisted alike, also won high Naval honors for their lifesaving and selfless actions. These awards were given out quietly, in an empty hangar in the Norfolk area, rather than at a public ceremony. This has always bothered me a lot, as these guys deserved better.
By all rights, the Liberty should have sunk. That it was saved, and though crippled badly from a missile strike at the hull line that exploded in the engine compartment, is a testimony to the superb officers and crew. The Lib limped back to the U.S. mostly on it's own, with a decimated crew, literally shot to pieces and listing badly.
Mistakes happen in wars.
Rather than concentrate on who started what, I would like to see the valiant officers and crewmen of the U.S.S. Liberty get full public recognition of their bravery, selflessness, and courage. It was truly in the highest traditions of the United States Navy, and they deserve more, much more, than what they got. The Captain has passed away now, and many of the officers and crew are going. Hopefully, those who still remain will be recognized with honors before we are all gone.
Last edited by banjomike; 08-05-2011 at 03:51 PM..
This event does not have to just fade away into history. There are surely dozens of men, now in their 60's and 70's, both American and Israeli, that were there that day. Living quietly in retirement are Israeli pilots that took part in the attack and intel people that know all the details. To claim that they have all passed away is not realistic. The Liberty attack was far too big and involved too many men to cover up. Just why it happened and the motivation for the attack must be known by at least several elderly Israelis. Almost certainly they have been under orders of secrecy, even after 44 years.
As far as flying the flag at sea goes: I don't know what the current policy is, but when I served in the intelligence fleet, we flew the standard ensign 24/7. Since the ships were unarmed, the flag was part of their protection package. The flag was also flown in the Med at that time; later on, I served on an oiler, and it was flown on the oiler and all ships it serviced.
That picture of the Liberty was taken at least a day after the attack. By then, the holiday ensign had been taken down. There are other photos that show it flying.
I was just curious on that point as the protocol I saw states it was regulation practice since the 1850's to not fly the flag while at sea in peacetime. Maybe that only applies to warships, but I've seen pictures of supply ships from the era that were also not flying the American flag while underway and I've seen ones where they were. You can clearly see in the picture of Liberty that its escort from the 6th Fleet is flying no flag. It was just something I was curious about. Like I said, maybe it only applies to warships.
where did you get that? Michael Oren in his book says that they thought it was an egyptian destroyer, threatening their troops near el arish.
Its not a question of us sailors lying. Its a question of knowing the state of mind of the pilots. The usual accusation is that the pilots COULDNT have been mistaken about the ship - it didnt look anything like a destroyer, etc. What Oren points out, is that the these pilots had been flying for days with little sleep, and had no training wrt to naval targets. People think of the IAF as supermen, so they wont accept that the IAF could have done it out of incompetence.
Which I think is of a piece with what NJGoat says, except for specificy mossad planes. Im not aware of MOssad having its own air force. I think miscommunication between IAF and IDF-naval is quite possible without the planes being other than IAF.
the transcripts say the piloets KNEW it was a US ship and were ordered to attack and take it out anyways .. check out the Links to the liberty that Goat offered ..
Quote:
2007 – Declassified intercepted Israeli pilot communications prove the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship
In the tapes, Israeli ground control knows the target ship is American and asks the pilots to confirm the target. Ground control instructs the pilots to sink the ship and leave no survivors. Some Israeli pilots were reluctant to attack the Liberty, calling to Israeli ground control and asking ‘This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?’ And ground control repied, ‘Yes, follow orders.’
I believe it was a cover up job by both the CIA and Mossad to blame Egypt and give the Isrealies an excuse to attack Egypt .. funny thing is no one told the sailors on that ship they were expendable
you might find this book very interesting 40+ yrs after the attack
This hard-hitting investigation shows that on that day in 1967, the world came closer to all-out nuclear war than ever before -- this incident made the Cuban Missile Crisis seem tame by comparison. Peter Hounam reveals that the attack was part of a clandestine plan between the US and Israel known as "Operation Cyanide," designed to ensure victory for Israel in the Middle East. By blaming the attack on the Arab world, retaliation on a grand scale would be justified.
The extreme delicacy of the handling of the USS Liberty incident is revealed by the fact that the survivors were awarded by President Johnson in a hushed cermony at the Washington Navy Yard. It was certainly a departure from protocol. Can anyone believe that the ceremony would have been held anywhere other than the White House, if the "accidental bombing" had involved any other country?
The unusual relationship of the US with Israel is perhaps without historical precedent. The many junkets www.moveoveraipac.org/.../representatives-going-on-an-Israel-lobby-junket (http://www.moveoveraipac.org/.../representatives-going-on-an-Israel-lobby-junket - broken link)to Israel by our congress people is testimnony to the political power wielded by this small nation. When was the last time we heard of a US congress person, of either party, going to Somali, or any number of unpleasant destinations where famine and pestilence stalk the population?
From reading some of the posts all I can say is the attack on the Liberty was a direct stab in the back by a country that we helped and claimed to be our ally. We should have retaliated immediately like we would have done with any other country. Also i will add that this proves our politicians are traitors to our country for giving their support to a foreign country that stabbed us in the back.
According to the Israeli Air Force radio transmissions, the attack on the USS Liberty was definitely a mistake.
Seventeen months since the last comment... do you suspect this non sequitur adds anything to the thread?
I sure wish CD would just lock old threads so that (however well meaning)
newbies can't bottom post their out of context questions or add 3 year late comments
Read the old threads? Absolutely.
But when the attempt is made to quote or post a quick reply... don't let it work.
Instead they can get a polite message advising the newbie about the age issue and suggesting
that they find a newer thread to bottom post onto (ha!) or point them to a "new post" button.
Have a sliding scale so the busier and longer threads can stay active longer...
but PLEASE shut them down the rest at some point.
less than 10 posts? close and lock after X weeks of inactivity
less than 30 posts? close and lock after Y weeks of inactivity
less than 50 posts? close and lock after Z weeks of inactivity
and so forth...
Hey, Mr. Rational...
Why not allow replies on topics that aren't locked? For sure, many topics become outdated, but history has a way of repeating itself, and many old events can become topical again. Why allow the first thoughts to always be the only thoughts?
After all, time brings insights and perspectives that may not be apparent at first. Many topics are posted here on C-D before all information is in and settled about the matter.
I realized long ago that the Liberty incident would always remain controversial. After all, it was a secret ship, part of a secret fleet, doing secret things, out beyond the reach of fleet assistance. It was 1967 and Israel, an ally, was at war. So were we, in a different war.
Both the ship and country that attacked her were vastly outgunned, both were doing things that possibly should not have been done, and neither stood to profit from the injuries and deaths suffered.
And it all happened 44 years ago. We who knew these ships best are all getting old now, and some of have passed on. After I made my contribution to this topic 2 years ago, I expected someone would ask me more questions, but no one ever did. That's OK- I put my two cents in on who was to blame and who wasn't. All I could have added was my belief that another Liberty incident couldn't be covered up these days, and that the world back then was a different world.
The only thing I would like people to really remember are the sailors who fought so valiantly to save their ship and those who died doing so. These men all acted in the very highest and proudest traditions of the United States Navy, and should not be forgotten.
The seas are a hostile place. Sea combat is much like fighting on a different planet where anything and everything can kill a human being. Even our very first and last act as a human being, breathing air, is not a given in sea combat.
The intent and purpose of the Navy is to go into harm's way when called to do so, and anything can happen out there on the edges of the world.
If a non-sequiter brings this topic back and as a result brings these forgotten men back to mind, that's all to the good as far as I see the matter. This is the History section, and I would never want this part of C-D to become locked and fixed down. I don't care about inactivity- not everything here should be passing and/or momentary.
I went to ‘Nam on a Liberty ship, the USS Tutuila ARG-4, in 1966. I am amazed they saved the ship after an engine room flooding. Liberty ships were seagoing trucks and not meant for combat of any kind. They should have been given the awards at the White House not some random airplane hangar. That was an insult.
My initial reaction to this act of aggression was to ask why the ship was in a war zone without air cover. My second question was why the 6th Fleet did not turn the Israeli air base into glazed dirt. An attack on a US Navy ship is an attack on the USA and the minimal proper response is to obliterate the attackers and, if not the country, at least the originating base.
I have always wondered why Israel is given special status. They are just another opportunistic Semitic nation is a region full of Semitic opportunists. A curse on all their Houses.
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