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Based on NJGoat's statement of these ships accuracy (which I don't doubt he is correct) how did these battleships ever hit, much less sink anything?
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Originally Posted by hamellr
Skill, practice, and a bit of luck.
Pretty much what hamellr said. The accuracy reached its peak in Korea precisely because there were large numbers of very experienced gunners doing the firing. Even with attempts to train modern crews and use modern fire control systems, they could just never get to that same level. It's pretty much an art form to get those guns on target reliably.
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Originally Posted by banjomike
Yup. I knew about the Missouri upgrades.
The biggest problem with the battleships is they are simply too old. To do a major retrofit, especially if the main batteries are to be replaced with modern missile systems, would be so costly that the money would be better spent on a brand-new ship.
The Iowa's engines can probably run forever, but they are going to fail in some way increasingly more often; parts is parts, and parts wear out. In combat, an engine failure would be disastrous.
We have other mothballed ships that are just as you describe- they would indeed be faster and cheaper to get back into action if needed. But they are vessels that are 10 to 30 years newer than the battleships, and are more versatile; one of the newer heavy cruisers, light cruisers or frigates would be much cheaper to upgrade.
The Navy is looking right now at mothballing some of the carrier fleet. In this era of super carriers, it seems more probable that a carrier would be the first to come out of mothballs; the latest I heard are some of the early nuclear carriers are going to be mothballed.
All ships have a lifespan. 30 years is the average for a warship. 40 years is stretching it, and 50 years is very rare. Sending a 70 year old warship into battle is a recipe for disaster. Even the nations like Brazil, who inherited much of our WWII battle fleet, have scrapped those ships over 10 years ago.
Realisitically, where is the present need for a battleship in a fleet that was built to fight major sea battles, not 3rd world ships? The heaviest ships found in the newer fleets in the Middle East are the size of large destroyers. Our former Cold War adversaries have mothballed almost all of their heavy ships 20 years ago. They would face many problems putting them back into service now.
We have at least a 20 year window where we rule the seas, and we already have a vast fleet at sea in both oceans and the Mediterranean. We simply don't need a 70-year old ship joining them. If another nation was ever to build a fleet approaching the size of ours, it will take 20 years to do it. By then, the Iowa will be 90 years old.
That's the equivalent of taking an elephant into modern combat. Powerful and impressive, but not so good as a war weapon anymore.
I agree overall, these ships aren't going back to sea. I do think that you could arguably find a role for them and they could comport themselves well, but how necessary are they really? Even in the 1980's when they were put back in service it was more about a show of force then anything else, something a battleship does rather well. These days there are far more effective ways to "skin a cat" then using the old battlewagons.
You very accurately pointed out the age of these ships and how old they would be by the time they could theoretically ever be needed. By then it would be akin to dusting off the USS Olympia to go fight in the Gulf War.
That's a beautiful ship, Goat!
All of The Great White Fleet were impressive and beautiful. They were the big stick that allowed Teddy Roosevelt to walk softly.
It has been over 40 years since I served my country in the Navy, but a handsome war ship still thrills me and brings back a lot of blue water memories.
That's a beautiful ship, Goat!
All of The Great White Fleet were impressive and beautiful. They were the big stick that allowed Teddy Roosevelt to walk softly.
It has been over 40 years since I served my country in the Navy, but a handsome war ship still thrills me and brings back a lot of blue water memories.
The Olympia is a ship I am very familiar with. It has been docked at Penns Landing in Philadelphia as part of the Independence Seaport Museum since the 1940's. I have been on the ship many times and have taken my son there as well to see her. Sadly, at this point Olympia is on the path to being scrapped or used as an artificial reef. She has been in the water continuously since 1945 and needs extensive repairs to her hull as well as the overall ship. With a cost of $10 million at a minimum for preservation no one has so far stepped up to help her. The Navy has refused to allocate funds for the ship and has authorized the museum to "responsibly dispose" of her. A non-profit organization is attempting to raise funds and the museum has held off on any other action and agreed to oversee repairs, but will not provide any funding.
The non-profit is working to raise money to keep her in Philadelphia and there have been several bills proposed at both the federal and state level to help, but not nearly enough has been raised. The Mare Island Historic Park Foundation in San Francisco has also expressed interest in acquiring the ship and placing it in there historic drydock, which would alleviate the issues of hull corrosion.
Today, the ship is still open to visitors (as is the WW2 sub Becuna which is docked next to Olympia), but it's fate is still in the balance. Any fate but its preservation would be sad as it was also the ship that carried home the Unknown Soldier from WW1, sad that she herself will become an "unknown soldier". It also makes for quite the sight as Olympia is docked across the river from USS New Jersey. In one place you can see the birth of the modern US battleship, the first example of American global seapower and the culmination of battleship design.
In this photo, you can see New Jersey on the bottom right and Olympia (docked next to Becuna) in the upper left. The tall ship just south of Olympia is the Moshulu, one of the last great four-masted steel barques. The Moshulu gained fame as being the ship in the Eric Newby novels as well as being the ship featured as bringing Vito Corleone to America in Godfather II. It's currently a restaurant and bar and has a very interesting history.
Sadly, at this point Olympia is on the path to being scrapped or used as an artificial reef. She has been in the water continuously since 1945 and needs extensive repairs to her hull as well as the overall ship. With a cost of $10 million at a minimum for preservation no one has so far stepped up to help her.
Very sad to hear that. If I had known I would have made even more of an effort to go see her the last time I was there.
I'd also like to go see the United States that is docked a few miles south of her.
It's interesting that the main guns of Olympia were designed for broadside attack. Broadsides were the reason battleships came to exist, and still dominated naval military planning into the 20th century, even though there were many advancements in naval gunnery.
Look at the elevation of the main batteries on New Jersey. The last BB's were designed for a completely different sea combat philosophy, and what is the differences in the two ships' ages- 35 years or so?
It's interesting that the main guns of Olympia were designed for broadside attack. Broadsides were the reason battleships came to exist, and still dominated naval military planning into the 20th century, even though there were many advancements in naval gunnery.
Look at the elevation of the main batteries on New Jersey. The last BB's were designed for a completely different sea combat philosophy, and what is the differences in the two ships' ages- 35 years or so?
Olympia was pretty much the ultimate evolution of naval cruiser design that took hold in the 1870's. The New Jersey was the ultimate evolution of battleship design that began in the early 1900's. Olympia was launched in 1895 and New Jersey was launched in 1942, so they were separated by around 47 years. Still an amazing amount of advance in such a relatively short time considering that before cruisers like Olympia iron reinforced ships-of-the-line had been around for 50 years or so and before that, ships had the same basic design premise for going on 300+ years.
Another little tidbit about the USS Iowa. On November 14, 1943, President Roosevelt and the country's top military brass were secretly crossing the Atlantic aboard the USS Iowa on their way to an Allied summit meeting in Tehran. Tremendous care was taken to hide the identity of the VIPs in order to insure their safety. But suddenly a torpedo was seen heading straight for them.
How could the Germans have known?
They didn't. The escort ship USS William D Porter had accidentally fired the torpedo during a drill. As danger alarms went off and crewmen headed to battle stations, the battleship Iowa maneuvered sharply and avoided the torpedo, which exploded just one hundred yards off the stern. The force of the explosion rocked the Iowa violently, but the ship was not harmed at all.
History records a successful summit that helped secure an Allied victory. But ther could have been a very different outcome- if not for a near miss.
After the incident, the USS Porter was escorted to Bermuda, where the entire crew was placed under arrest. The crew was interrogated all night. The captain was transferred to a desk job and Porter was ordered to the Aleutian Islands.
It is said that after that,other ships often hailed her with the greeting "Don't shoot-we're Republicans.
Ayear later the Porter was hit by a kamikaze off Okinawa and became the only destroyer in the war to sink without the loss of a single man. Nearby ships were able to pluck all survivors out of the water.
The article I linked to indicates the USS Iowa will open to the public in two more days, on July 7, 2012. The article also discusses the problems inherent in breaking even financially for warship museums; some are doing spendidly and others are struggling to pay the electricity bills. The main factor? Location, location, location.
The article I linked to indicates the USS Iowa will open to the public in two more days, on July 7, 2012. The article also discusses the problems inherent in breaking even financially for warship museums; some are doing spendidly and others are struggling to pay the electricity bills. The main factor? Location, location, location.
Good article and very accurate. The succesful museum ships it highlights are all part of larger port companies and in general are located in tourist draw areas where there are other things to do. The ships become one of the draws, not THE draw. In Philly the Olympia is part of the Independence Seaport Musuem, which is basically a small non-profit and has nothing to do with the larger organization that runs Penn's Landing, the Navy Yard or other port facilities. Same thing with New Jersey in Camden and Texas in Houston that are basically small non-profit museums unto themselves and located in areas that aren't big tourist draws. I know locally, no one that goes to Philly to visit is going to trek across to Camden to see the battleship and there are only so many times that local folks are going to go and visit.
The Iowa has been open to the public for about six months now and I finally got around to visiting her a few days ago. I was not disappointed, although the entire ship is not yet open to public visitation; they will continue to open other parts in the coming months and years. Getting to their website is easy by googling Battleship USS Iowa.
I have hopes that the venture will be financially self-sustaining. Referring to NJGoat's comments in the post just above, the Iowa is indeed in an area that has other attractions. The "Ports of Call" tourist area is a few hundred yards away, where you can go out on whale-watching boats and where there are several restaurants. There is a small maritime museum in the immediate vicinity that is worthwhile and which has been there quite a few years. The ship is easy to find by car, as there is a sign at the freeway exit, and other signs directing you the short remaining distance, and anyway you see her on your left as you drive south.
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Update: Ship to open to the public on July 7, 2012
