Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Is this going to turn into another Afrocentric debate replete with YouTube lectures all from the same group of people and endless quotes from Martin Bernal's, Black Athena? If we are going to go down that road, then it will just turn into a spam fest of "experts" with everyone on the other side of the debate quoting Mary Lefkowitz, Guy Rogers, Edith Hall, John Ray and James Weinstein.
You were a little vague in your OP as to exactly what you are getting at. Personally, I could care less what the genetic and "racial" pedigree of the Greeks or Egyptians were as that discussion is very tainted by modern concepts of race and people trying to "prove their pedigree". Both were essentially distinct and influential cultures, both on the world as a whole and on each other during their time. We know that the Greeks studied the Egyptians and there was significant trade between them. To assume that there would not be cultural and intellectual exchanges is foolish. Obviously, both cultures had some amount of influence on each other.
What we do know is that Greece was dominated by Minoan and then Mycenaean culture until 1100 BC. After the collapse of Mycenaean civilization, Greece entered a "Dark Age" before emerging into what is now known as the "Archaic Age" around 800 BC. The "archaic age" is so named because it contains the root or "archaic" seeds of what would become Classical culture. Around 600-700 BC Greece through its trade networks and movement of populations became heavily influenced by the art of Anatolia, Syria, Assyria, Phoenicia and Egypt. This is also the time that we see the re-birth of language when the Greeks adopt the Phoenican alphabet. This flourishing of culture leads to the Classical period. Parallels between all of those cultures can be found in Greek myths, art and iconography of the Classical period.
What we also know is that whatever the Greeks gained or learned from other civilizations, they certainly took it in new directions and modified it with their own style. For instance, there is plenty of evidence of early Egyptian mathematics that shared elements with early Greek mathematics. Is it possible that the Greeks studied this and then developed it further which gave rise to Greek philosophy, sure it is and that is most likely what happened. Were the Greeks extremely fascinated with Egyptian art, culture and building, absolutely. They definitely copied some of it and integrated it into their culture.
So, influence from Egypt and many other cultures, absolutely. However, I draw the line when we start to slide into Bernal's theories about it all being from the same black African root. In which case, Bernal is more concerned with proving the root was black then anything else and while I have debated this before on the topic of Egypt, I don't wish to again. I think applying modern racial concepts to ancient cultures is foolish and for the most part the desire of Afrocentric's to "black wash" all ancient culture is just as bad as the European attempt in the early modern era to "white wash" it.
What we do know is that Greece was dominated by Minoan and then Mycenaean culture until 1100 BC. After the collapse of Mycenaean civilization, Greece entered a "Dark Age" before emerging into what is now known as the "Archaic Age" around 800 BC. The "archaic age" is so named because it contains the root or "archaic" seeds of what would become Classical culture. Around 600-700 BC Greece through its trade networks and movement of populations became heavily influenced by the art of Anatolia, Syria, Assyria, Phoenicia and Egypt. This is also the time that we see the re-birth of language when the Greeks adopt the Phoenican alphabet. This flourishing of culture leads to the Classical period. Parallels between all of those cultures can be found in Greek myths, art and iconography of the Classical period.
What we also know is that whatever the Greeks gained or learned from other civilizations, they certainly took it in new directions and modified it with their own style. For instance, there is plenty of evidence of early Egyptian mathematics that shared elements with early Greek mathematics. Is it possible that the Greeks studied this and then developed it further which gave rise to Greek philosophy, sure it is and that is most likely what happened. Were the Greeks extremely fascinated with Egyptian art, culture and building, absolutely. They definitely copied some of it and integrated it into their culture.
That's close to the type of response I was looking for. Anyway I got interested in this after seeing a Tv program on Greek civilization that touched on Thales. I saw a few online articles where they mentioned that Thales had studied geometry in Egypt. I'am familiar with the Afrocentric debates it's just that I wanted to get some clarity on the various ways that Egypt had actually influenced Greece.
That's close to the type of response I was looking for. Anyway I got interested in this after seeing a Tv program on Greek civilization that touched on Thales. I saw a few online articles where they mentioned that Thales had studied geometry in Egypt. I'am familiar with the Afrocentric debates it's just that I wanted to get some clarity on the various ways that Egypt had actually influenced Greece.
There are stories of Thales studying the pyramids in Egypt and having knowledge of the Egyptian seqed which is known about through the Rhind papyrus. Basically it all ties back to knowledge of triangles and basic geometric relationships. The stories would hold that what Thales did was observe the triangles present in the pyramids, take the information in the seqed as well as studying how the Egyptains drew circles and measured the angles of intersecting lines. He then took these observations and basic mathematical knowledge and took it in new directions by developing the theories that now govern trigonometry.
In general while mathematics, astronomy and medicine were all known long before Thales, what Thales is credited with is bringing something new to human thought, that is the creation or realization of a universal relationship among all things. Greek classical thought became devoid of a "fable" based origin, instead taking it in a more abstract direction. Thales postulated that the origin of all things was born in water, he introduced the concept that all things in the world are united and governed by certain principles. He did this devoid of a mythology that previously dominated human thought. He took the component observations and knowledge possessed by many people, including the Egyptians and developed a recognized universality in it, essentially all things are one and that a substance remains the same even in different states. Thales is also seen as the originator of theoretical inquiry. He stepped back from tradition and mythology and began an "inquiry into what is true itself".
So, we have evidence through stories and history that Thales certainly gained from the Egyptian knowledge of mathematics. It is what he did with that knowledge that sets him apart. While the Egyptains developed that mathematical knowledge for practical reasons, it was Thales that took it into the theoretical and expanded the scope of its implication. Basically, the world is not governed by the whims of a God or Gods, but that there are natural unifying principles present in all things.
If we look at it in terms of how people thought the Egyptians and other ancient cultures were "mythos" thinkers, while Thales represents the first of the "logos" thinkers. A mythos man explains the world through myths relating to gods and powers. He may observe some components of the unifying prinicples (e.g. right angles and other mathematical properties), but he doesn't see the relationship except through the myth and does not differentiate between things/persons and nature/culture. A logos man relies on sensible argumentation and believes in the abstract. Logos thinking introduced by Thales laid the foundation for philosophy and the scientific method. The world can now be explained through scientific argumentation/discovery and observation and not through mythical stories.
In this way through the story of Thales, I think we can see the fallacy in going down the road of which civilization beget another or what the "roots" are. Each civilization borrowed, learned and advanced what was known by those that came before them. It is essentially the evolution and torch of human thought carried forward over millenia. I think Isaac Newtons quote applies pretty well, "If I have seen farther, it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants". Thales most likely stood on Egyptian (and other civilizations) shoulders in terms of advancing thought, but advance it he did and that advancement is something that belongs to the Greek tradition, regardless of what pieces of knowledge from other places may have influenced them.
is this going to turn into another afrocentric debate replete with youtube lectures all from the same group of people and endless quotes from martin bernal's, black athena? If we are going to go down that road, then it will just turn into a spam fest of "experts" with everyone on the other side of the debate quoting mary lefkowitz, guy rogers, edith hall, john ray and james weinstein.
You were a little vague in your op as to exactly what you are getting at. Personally, i could care less what the genetic and "racial" pedigree of the greeks or egyptians were as that discussion is very tainted by modern concepts of race and people trying to "prove their pedigree". Both were essentially distinct and influential cultures, both on the world as a whole and on each other during their time. We know that the greeks studied the egyptians and there was significant trade between them. To assume that there would not be cultural and intellectual exchanges is foolish. Obviously, both cultures had some amount of influence on each other.
What we do know is that greece was dominated by minoan and then mycenaean culture until 1100 bc. After the collapse of mycenaean civilization, greece entered a "dark age" before emerging into what is now known as the "archaic age" around 800 bc. The "archaic age" is so named because it contains the root or "archaic" seeds of what would become classical culture. Around 600-700 bc greece through its trade networks and movement of populations became heavily influenced by the art of anatolia, syria, assyria, phoenicia and egypt. This is also the time that we see the re-birth of language when the greeks adopt the phoenican alphabet. This flourishing of culture leads to the classical period. Parallels between all of those cultures can be found in greek myths, art and iconography of the classical period.
What we also know is that whatever the greeks gained or learned from other civilizations, they certainly took it in new directions and modified it with their own style. For instance, there is plenty of evidence of early egyptian mathematics that shared elements with early greek mathematics. Is it possible that the greeks studied this and then developed it further which gave rise to greek philosophy, sure it is and that is most likely what happened. Were the greeks extremely fascinated with egyptian art, culture and building, absolutely. They definitely copied some of it and integrated it into their culture.
So, influence from egypt and many other cultures, absolutely. However, i draw the line when we start to slide into bernal's theories about it all being from the same black african root. In which case, bernal is more concerned with proving the root was black then anything else and while i have debated this before on the topic of egypt, i don't wish to again. I think applying modern racial concepts to ancient cultures is foolish and for the most part the desire of afrocentric's to "black wash" all ancient culture is just as bad as the european attempt in the early modern era to "white wash" it.
I find it sad that someone can't ask a legitimate question, and an important one, without people reading something racial into it. Egypt was a center of learning, and a crossroads for people from Europe through parts of the Mid-East (Judea), as well as Africa. I think it would be unusual if Egypt didn't influence Greece. With all the trade caravans circulating throughout the region, it would be reasonable to assume that elements of culture and knowledge circulated in all directions.
Greece and the Egyptian culture were linked by trade by voyages either from the Agean due south or following the coast along Asia Minor Cyprus and Phoenicia to the outpost of the Egyptians in Cannan or Sinai. The Minoans and later the Greeks got things like papyrus, cotton, flax, and dates along with knowledge in geometry, building with stone, astronomy. The Egyptians got olive oil, wine, copper from Cyprus.
I find it sad that someone can't ask a legitimate question, and an important one, without people reading something racial into it. Egypt was a center of learning, and a crossroads for people from Europe through parts of the Mid-East (Judea), as well as Africa. I think it would be unusual if Egypt didn't influence Greece. With all the trade caravans circulating throughout the region, it would be reasonable to assume that elements of culture and knowledge circulated in all directions.
Thanks for posting this topic, OP.
This happens because Egypt is in AFRICA and modern people don't want to believe that ancient African people had anything to do with influencing Western culture.
You should get your hands on anything written or produced by John Anthony West.
How do most mainstream Egyptologist view his work? What has Zahi Hawass said bout him?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
