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People living in their cohesive and harmonious communities weren't doing anything to any blacks.
Yes, absolutely white people were doing many, many things against black people. Black people in America were forbidden, often by law, from using restaurants or lodging when they traveled. Sometimes, they could even be arrested for walking through the door of a hotel and requesting service.
Have you ever heard of The Green Book? It was actually titled The Negro Motorist Green-Book. It was written by Victor Green in New York and published from 1936 until 1966. (I guess the Civil Rights Act made it unnecessary.) Here's a link to an article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ne...ist_Green_Book
The book made it vastly more safe for black people to travel in America by telling them where it was safe to look for lodging, food, automobile service, or even to be seen in public after sundown. (Did you know that walking down Maine Street after dark while being black was against the law in some places?)
Are you aware that black athletes and musicians often were not allowed to stay in the same hotels or eat at the same restaurants as their white teammates and fellow musicians? That was because of white people living in their cohesive and harmonious communities. Aren't you proud of them for maintaining their cohesiveness and harmony?
The communities are not responsible for what the law is or isn't. There are many laws I disagree with today, and it doesn't make me or my community responsible. If you don't like a law do you automatically blame the entire white community?
You are overlooking the fact that blacks had their own communities they could've made into anything they wanted, even better than whites', and which were not accommodating to whites. I know there's a million reasons why they couldn't have done so and everyone of them is all whites' fault, right? Also, the law was "separate but equal". Yes things like you mentioned were segregated in many places, but separate accommodations were provided usually right nearby.
My argument wasn't that forced segregation was good for blacks to begin with or about segregation. My argument against MLK, CR movement through is that it's an one-way exaggerated shame, blame and scapegoat whites and no concern at all for what is good for them. MLK and CR movement didn't seek to just end forced segregation, they sought forced equal or better outcomes.
After the Civil Rights Act passed King began addressing other topics such as poverty in general, which most poor people were white, and other social issues between 1965-68. The liberal media at the time largely began to ignore MLK when it wasn't about making it a white vs black race issue.
The remarkable thing about this annual review of King’s life is that several years — his last years — are totally missing, as if flushed down a memory hole.What TV viewers see is a closed loop of familiar file footage: King battling desegregation in Birmingham (1963); reciting his dream of racial harmony at the rally in Washington (1963); marching for voting rights in Selma, Alabama (1965); and finally, lying dead on the motel balcony in Memphis (1968).
An alert viewer might notice that the chronology jumps from 1965 to 1968. Yet King didn’t take a sabbatical near the end of his life. In fact, he was speaking and organizing as diligently as ever.
The communities are not responsible for what the law is or isn't. There are many laws I disagree with today, and it doesn't make me or my community responsible. If you don't like a law do you automatically blame the entire white community?
You are overlooking the fact that blacks had their own communities they could've made into anything they wanted, even better than whites', and which were not accommodating to whites. I know there's a million reasons why they couldn't have done so and everyone of them is all whites' fault, right? Also, the law was "separate but equal". Yes things like you mentioned were segregated in many places, but separate accommodations were provided usually right nearby.
My argument wasn't that forced segregation was good for blacks to begin with or about segregation. My argument against MLK, CR movement through is that it's an one-way exaggerated shame, blame and scapegoat whites and no concern at all for what is good for them. MLK and CR movement didn't seek to just end forced segregation, they sought forced equal or better outcomes.
You clearly have no concept of what life was like in the deeply segregated parts of the US prior to the Civil Rights Act. I do NOT think it is better for white children to be taught by their parents to hate people because they look different from themselves. It is NOT better to have communities where people are divided up based on their skin types.
The treatment that black people were forced to endure was directly the responsibility of white people. White people made it difficult for black people to vote. White people elected representatives who passed segregation laws. White people put up "No Colored People Allowed" signs. White people approved of "Whites Only" establishments. White people deserved a little inconvenience for lynching black people and terrorizing them with KKK activities.
I suspect you are too young to have seen any active segregation. Those of us who saw it know how ugly it was. What remains now is just a shadow of passive segregation; nothing remotely like it was in the 1950s.
You clearly have no concept of what life was like in the deeply segregated parts of the US prior to the Civil Rights Act. I do NOT think it is better for white children to be taught by their parents to hate people because they look different from themselves. It is NOT better to have communities where people are divided up based on their skin types.
The treatment that black people were forced to endure was directly the responsibility of white people. White people made it difficult for black people to vote. White people elected representatives who passed segregation laws. White people put up "No Colored People Allowed" signs. White people approved of "Whites Only" establishments. White people deserved a little inconvenience for lynching black people and terrorizing them with KKK activities.
I suspect you are too young to have seen any active segregation. Those of us who saw it know how ugly it was. What remains now is just a shadow of passive segregation; nothing remotely like it was in the 1950s.
Ding ding ding. Lol it's actually hysterical how uninformed poster is.
"SEPERATE BUT EQUAL" !! what a joke. Birmingham was called "Bombingham" because if Blacks did improve their communities the KLAN would bomb the houses. My grandparents were told often that blacks did not need Abby thing but a shack since they lived in holes back in Africa.
No we did not want equal outcomes we wanted equal OPPORTUNITIES. You can't take my taxes and then not provide sanitation or water and then claim my community is the same. (Not talking 2018 but 1958)
Ding ding ding. Lol it's actually hysterical how uninformed poster is.
"SEPERATE BUT EQUAL" !! what a joke. Birmingham was called "Bombingham" because if Blacks did improve their communities the KLAN would bomb the houses. My grandparents were told often that blacks did not need Abby thing but a shack since they lived in holes back in Africa.
No we did not want equal outcomes we wanted equal OPPORTUNITIES. You can't take my taxes and then not provide sanitation or water and then claim my community is the same. (Not talking 2018 but 1958)
Well, let's call it what it is. It has nothing to do with someone being uninformed. They teach about segregation, Jim Crow, and the civil rights movement in school starting with the kids. Said poster making these bigoted, fallacious posts is being a bigot, and then squirming when called out on it. Said person knows what he or she is doing. Said person is not fighting facts, but other posters for not accepting his/her view of things.
Some people want the old days back, when events like Bombingham took place. Rosewood, Greenwood in Tulsa. Some people pine for the days when it was okay to "kerp the blacks in their place" Separate was designed to be unequal. This is why Black schools got the hand-me-down books and worse school facilitates than White schools. It was about keeping the Black population in a state of subservience. It wasn't about "preserving a culture". It was about making life hard for others. If you get a substandard education, if you can't vote, it's hard to compete in society.
As for the things your grandparents were told, that is a major thing. Whenever a Black person in those days amassed alot of money and nice things, particularly in the South, said Black person became viewed as a threat. The idea was "a Black person isn't supposed to have as much as a White person".
You clearly have no concept of what life was like in the deeply segregated parts of the US prior to the Civil Rights Act. I do NOT think it is better for white children to be taught by their parents to hate people because they look different from themselves. It is NOT better to have communities where people are divided up based on their skin types.
The treatment that black people were forced to endure was directly the responsibility of white people. White people made it difficult for black people to vote. White people elected representatives who passed segregation laws. White people put up "No Colored People Allowed" signs. White people approved of "Whites Only" establishments. White people deserved a little inconvenience for lynching black people and terrorizing them with KKK activities.
I suspect you are too young to have seen any active segregation. Those of us who saw it know how ugly it was. What remains now is just a shadow of passive segregation; nothing remotely like it was in the 1950s.
I sum it up like this. The civil rights movement is taught in the schools. I don't think for a moment that said person is ill-informed or doesn't have any idea. Said person just doesn't care. Some people purposely choose to think a certain way. We can show the facts all day and night. If the person we show the facts to refuses to acknowledge them, that is on them. They have chosen to be that way.
A thread about MLK ought to be an opportunity to talk in far more positive terms. Maybe if we ignore the bigots they will go away.
So, I thought I might throw out a couple of questions for discussion:
1. Who, besides MLK, was a great civil rights leader in this country? My choice would be Justice Thurgood Marshall who served for twenty + years on the Supreme Court. However, much of Marshall's claim to fame actually occurred before he was ever put on the Supreme Court. Marshall worked for years as the NAACP's legal counsel in which he brought numerous cases that put civil rights issues before the courts. Marshall had faith that if he brought the right cases and argued them effectively in court that the court system wouldn't let him down. In 1954, Marshall argued Brown v. the Board of Education before the U.S. Supreme Court and got nine white supreme court justices to hold unanimously that segregated schools were unconstitutional
2. If MLK were alive today what would he be talking about? What would upset him the most? My thoughts are that he wouldn't have nearly as much to say about race today. However, what he would be attacking is the disparity between the wealthy and the poor. He would be demanding that America work for human rights in all countries.
3. Do some other people deserve some credit for the progress made in civil rights such as former President Lyndon Johnson, Chief Justice Earl Warren of the Supreme Court, and MLK's lieutenants such as John Lewis, Ralph Abernathy, and Jessie Jackson?
For #1 there are way too many to mention. I study a lot of black history in particular and feel there are a lot of unknown Civil Rights leaders. One of the earliest and well known was Frederick Douglas, who was/is my historical crush and always will be. Of the 20th century, some of my favorite black activists in particular were WEB DuBois (he was also a 19th century black activist, he was born in 1868 and didn't die until 1963), James Weldon Johnson, A. Phillip Randolph who was a labor leader and the organizer of the March on Washington, which made MLK's dream speech possible, Ella Baker, Fannie Lou Hamer (I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired - a quote that spreads the ages), Ida B. Wells-Barnett (mentioned earlier, I heart her as well), Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin, Mary Ann Shadd Cary, Abraham Doras Shadd (father of Mary Ann), William Still (black American - founder of the Underground Railroad) I could go on and on honestly.
For the 20th century, I've actually personally met quite a few of the men who worked with Dr. King when I went to college and lived in Atlanta, including Hosea Williams before he passed (he was a real character lol), Andrew Young, John Lewis (was my congressman as well), Ralph David Abernathey (didn't get to meet him he died before I moved to Atlanta but I've met some of his family members); other people who I admire of that era are Fred Shuttlesworth, Bayard Rustin, and Dorothy Height.
For 2 - I think he would be similar to his colleagues who are still alive of his era, including Andy Young and John Lewis and Jesse Jackson in regards to their socio-political focuses.
For 3 many people already give "credit" to the persons you mentioned. IMO it is sad that too often, as I noted earlier, that people overlook the entire "movement" per se and instead only focus on the the climatic events of the 1950s-1960s. I also feel that people overlook the fact that the NAACP was a vital part of the court battles that occurred to end traditional and legalized discrimination. Nearly every 20th century civil rights activist of any note was a member of or affiliated with the NAACP and they don't get enough "credit" IMO. I recently finished a biography of WEB DuBois (who is my 20th century historical crush because he was just pure intellect and a very "thinking" person IMO and very complex, I love that about him and wish I would have been alive to get to meet him) and it spoke at length about the change in the NAACP which moved the battle for civil rights into the courts instead of in the press (print/newspapers) which was more prominent in the early years of the NAACP. That change was not well welcomed by members of the old guard like DuBois, mostly because of the personality differences between him and another important NAACP civil rights leader - Walter White, but that move is what caused the systematic racism in this country to be dismantled. The NAACP were also vital in establishing workplace protections for white women in the 1970s (via Phillips v Martin Marietta), something people do not know much about at all.
The treatment that black people were forced to endure was directly the responsibility of (SOME) white people. (SOME) White people made it difficult for black people to vote. (SOME) White people elected representatives who passed segregation laws. (SOME) White people put up "No Colored People Allowed" signs. (SOME) White people approved of "Whites Only" establishments. (SOME) White people deserved a little inconvenience for lynching black people and terrorizing them with KKK activities.
I fixed that for you, "moderator".
It's amazing to me how certain people/segments of society get away with COLLECTIVE GUILT of an entire group of people, but if you cast COLLECTIVE GUILT on other groups of people, you are a "BIGOT!!!!!" or "RACIST!!!!!".
Another thing I think is often overlooked in the Civil Rights climatic era is the fact that there was discrimination against black people all over the country, it was not just in the south. There were laws in northern areas, redlining, and local government housing and education policies that segregated cities, which is why we still have segregation in nearly ever major urban area today, no matter the geography.
Dr. King mentioned before in an interview that the scariest place he had ever marched was not in Mississippi, but it was in Cicero, IL, a suburban community of Chicago. I am from the Midwest. We have a long history of racial oppression in this area contrary to what people know or believe.
Again, if something doesn't affect an individual, they don't see there is a problem and won't offer to help fix a solution. Also the mindset in the north and west was in many ways different from the southern style of Civil Rights. Many also ignore that a majority of black people did not fully support Dr. King in his non-violent direct action campaigns. In the Midwest and out west and in the NE black people favored a more black nationalist activism, which Dr. King also spoke about in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail that of which I quoted earlier:
Quote:
I started thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency made up of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, have been so completely drained of self-respect and a sense of "somebodyness" that they have adjusted to segregation, and, on the other hand, of a few Negroes in the middle class who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because at points they profit by segregation, have unconsciously become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred and comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up over the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. This movement is nourished by the contemporary frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination. It is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incurable devil. I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need not follow the do-nothingism of the complacent or the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. There is a more excellent way, of love and nonviolent protest. I'm grateful to God that, through the Negro church, the dimension of nonviolence entered our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, I am convinced that by now many streets of the South would be flowing with floods of blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble-rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who are working through the channels of nonviolent direct action and refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes, out of frustration and despair, will seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies, a development that will lead inevitably to a frightening racial nightmare.
It's amazing to me how certain people/segments of society get away with COLLECTIVE GUILT of an entire group of people, but if you cast COLLECTIVE GUILT on other groups of people, you are a "BIGOT!!!!!" or "RACIST!!!!!".
Disgraceful.
There were no black people keeping black people from voting. There were no black people electing legislators who enacted segregation laws. There were no black people putting up "No Colored People Allowed" signs. There were no black people who approved of "Whites Only" establishments. There were no black people in the KKK or lynching black guys for looking "wrong" at white women. There were no black people who volunteered to go to inferior schools in inferior buildings with handed-down textbooks.
No black people did those things. All of the blame lies elsewhere.
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